Transcripts courtesy of the Northern Ireland Information Service

Program: Talkback
Date & Time: June 16, 2005 – 12.34pm
Subject: Appointment of Human Rights Chief Commissioner
 

DAVID DUNSEITH

Monica, you’ve heard there what Arlene Foster has had to say, so many things … a political bias being, I suppose the main one, what do you say in answer to that particular charge?

MONICA McWILLIAMS

Well on one hand I think she’s being quite contradictory in that she does want people to be politically involved now in moving the human right’s issues forward because she said there had been a hands off from political parties in the past, and so if you want to get people politically involved then obviously people are going to come with us with a political background. 

I would also say that if you’ve got a commitment to human rights in Northern Ireland you probably will be politically active in some aspect of your life in the past. So that would be my response. I’m delighted to hear that Arlene is keen to get the unionist community involved, and I will be working very closely with her, I hope in the future on that project as well. 

The composition obviously has represented this from in its diversity from every background and people did apply independently, the fact that people have had political affiliation is understandable because as I say that shows that they’ve had a commitment to human rights. 

So I think that’s also an unfair criticism, I think the criticism in relation to the lack of legal expertise is unfair, Professor Colin Harvey is on the new Commission, he is the Director of the Human Rights Centre at Queens University and will bring enormous gravitas from his experience internationally on human rights issues to the new Commission. 

So I would have a lot of concerns about her criticizing the Commission from that perspective and indeed, and myself would hope to establish an advisory group of people who have legal expertise on international human rights, as anybody in a Commission working internationally would do.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Yes, she also said, I think she used the words that you have a certain view of human rights and she specifically mentioned your attitude to victimhood, in other words that all victims in your mind are together whether they’re victims of terrorism or innocent victims or however you want to describe them?

MONICA McWILLIAMS

I was extremely shocked at that, I mean on my first day as Chief Commissioner I would really like it be made very clear that I have a very strong record of work in promoting the rights of victims, and if we talk to any of the victims groups they will know that I’ve spent years working with them, and in fact was initially involved with some of the victims groups getting established. 

Groups such as WAVE, I’ve worked closely with in the past, many, many years before the issue of victims came up, and I was determined that if we were going to go forward in Northern Ireland that victim’s voices would be heard. I have consistently condemned human rights abuses by paramilitaries, and I have been involved with the families of ‘The Disappeared.’ 

So I’m not sure where in fact that particular view has come from, but anyone who has also been known on my work on domestic violence will know that I can clearly make a distinction between perpetrators of violence and abuse, and those who’ve been at the receiving end of that.

DAVID DUNSEITH

And finally, as you take up the reins in this job, and you’ve heard what Arlene Foster has had to say, it must be running through your head, well not the first time that you’ve encountered hostility from some unionist politicians?

MONICA McWILLIAMS

No, and I think that that’s understandable that some people might have concerns with any individual who is coming into this new post as Chief Commissioner, but I have a track record of being a team player and working closely with teams of people who have come from different political backgrounds including the DUP. And Arlene knows that there is a new member on the Commission who is also a member of their party. And I very much look forward to working with Jonathan Bell as I do with all the other Commissioners. 

I’ve worked with Arlene herself in the past, and I’m looking forward to working with Arlene in the future. I hope that she doesn’t feel that my appointment in this way will anyway hamper that relationship that I have attempted to build with all of the political parties, and I hope my record will stand clear on that.

Program: Talkback – Arlene Foster
Date & Time: 16.6.05 – 12.29
Subject: Appointment of Human Rights Chief Commissioner

DAVID DUNSEITH

Now the appointment of Professor Monica McWilliams as Chief Commissioner of the Human Rights Commission has angered the DUP. They describe the decision (unclear) she was a former Women’s Coalition MLA as crass, claiming she’s a failed politician with a partisan record. Well in a moment the response of the Chief Commissioner after this from DUP MLA Arlene Foster.

ARLENE FOSTER

I just find it’s a very disappointing day for human rights in Northern Ireland and certainly for me personally I’m very disappointed because since the creation of the Human Rights Commission I have been arguing that unionists and indeed Protestants should be getting involved in the human rights agenda. 

They should be claiming ownership of it and I feel the disappointment today of Professor McWilliams as the Chief Commissioner has laid a body blow to that and indeed I cannot understand the thinking of Government and I think indeed that they have set back the human rights agenda for the unionists by at least 10 years.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Yes, but is it not irresponsible to challenge the professionalism of a public servant? I mean people in roles, whatever their political inclinations or their religious background, have carried out professional duties, whether in the law, the judiciary or many other fields?

ARLENE FOSTER

Well, David, let’s just look at the composition of the new Commission because I think that’s important, I think your listeners need to be aware of that. Of that Commission there are now two members who are or have been members of the SDLP, there are two members who are or have been members of the Northern Ireland Women’s Coalition, there’s one member of the DUP and there’s one member of the Alliance Party. 

Now the Human Rights Commission has just been made into a political institution, I think that’s a retrograde step, I think at least in the last Commission which came under a huge amount of criticism, at least there was an identification of some sort of lawyers being involved in it, some sort of human rights agenda being involved in it and I think it’s very disappointing that we’re moving in a direction of political bias and I think it’s a retrograde step for human rights in Northern Ireland and in particular for the unionist community.

DAVID DUNSEITH

So are you saying to me that your hostility is directed not at the individual, ie Professor McWilliams, but rather at the political make-up and the background of those appointed?

ARLENE FOSTER

No I think the make-up itself is devastating, David, because of the political nature of it. But to make the Chief Commissioner a person who has a certain view of human rights which is not shared, may I say, in any way by the majority community in Northern Ireland, quite the reverse in fact. But as well as that she has taken a certain view in relation to victimhood and what that means for innocent victims, she believes that perpetrators of terrorism should be of the same status as victims of violence, innocent victims of violence, that obviously has a view as well to be taken into consideration and quite apart from that there is political bias there on her part. 

She was involved in the redesignation to allow David Trimble to become First Minister at a time when the majority community were moving away from him and I just think this is a very disappointing day for human rights in Northern Ireland.

DAVID DUNSEITH

But finally, surely in the circumstances it would be impossible to find anybody in Northern Ireland who did not have, as they so describe it, some political baggage?

ARLENE FOSTER

Well let me say this, David, this is very obvious political baggage first of all. Secondly, I do know of people who applied to the Commission, people from a legal background, people who weren’t members of any political party, who did not get the appointment and instead what we have here today is somebody from a clear political standpoint being appointed to a position as Chief Commissioner, this is a chance for Government to make a fresh start in an area which is intensely important can I say, and I just feel they have confined this important issue to the margins of political debate and they made it into a political football, something which it shouldn’t be.

DAVID DUNSEITH

So if it had been a DUP person appointed you would have been saying, great and somebody else would have maybe criticized it?

ARLENE FOSTER

No, no, I don’t think that’s right at all, David. I think, what I am saying is that it’s a huge issue, I have been working very hard to try and get unionists involved in it and today we have got a knock, a step back by at least 10 years.