| The following transcripts are courtesy
of the Northern Ireland Information Service.
Paisley, Trimble Discuss State of Parties
Program: ITN
Date & Time: March 23, 2005 – 10.50am
Subject: Peace Process
IAN PAISLEY
(Unclear) and if you have chosen to take another road of terrorism,
you’re out, and that’s it, and we should get on with it.
ALISTAIR STEWART
Have you discussed that with the SDLP, because that’s exactly what they’ve
said over the last 24 hours?
IAN PAISLEY
Well I have discussed it with the SDLP, but the SDLP are biting their
lips on this election business, and they have difficulties.
ALISTAIR STEWART
How do you mean?
IAN PAISLEY
Well they wonder just how many seats they’re going to hold, and they
also wonder how big the vote for the IRA/Sinn Fein will be.
ALISTAIR STEWART
That’s a crucial factor, isn’t it, because both in the Republic and
in Northern Ireland, the simple truth of the matter is, whatever you say
about Sinn Fein or the SDLP say about them, or indeed anybody does, they
still pull in the votes at the ballot boxes, and that’s the big gamble
for the SDLP itself and for you seeking to do business with the SDLP?
IAN PAISLEY
Well of course the SDLP if they were (unclear), it might be easier to
do business with, it cuts both ways. I mean if they get a hiding from IRA/Sinn
Fein they’ll be more able to do business with unionists.
ALISTAIR STEWART
Shock (unclear).
IAN PAISLEY
I mean they’ll be prepared, it will be shock treatment, but I mean,
the battle in Northern Ireland at this election is simply the battle for
the union, I mean, and the SDLP have now lined up again as a united Irish
party, they’ve brought the Foreign Secretary from the South in to spread
their propaganda and so this is going to be a major issue. Are we going
to have a union or not have it?
ALISTAIR STEWART
That’s going back eight years, Dr Paisley?
IAN PAISLEY
Yes it is, but that’s, they brought it back, I mean I was amazed at
them bringing a Foreign Secretary from another country to start their election
campaign off, but so they did in Newry yesterday.
ALISTAIR STEWART
Indeed, is there any way that Sinn Fein, Mr Adams, Mr McGuinness, other
people there, can sit down and talk and ask everybody else to pretend that
the IRA isn’t there?
IAN PAISLEY
No, well I believe that we have to be absolutely true to our people,
I believe people are asking for truth, I believe what happened in the Short
Strand is, even the people who are republicans, they want the truth, they’re
sick, sore and tired of what has happened, and the time for the truth has
come.
********
April 8, 2005
Program: Hearts and Minds – David Trimble
Date & Time April 7, 2005 – 20.00
Subject Politics
NOEL THOMPSON
Mr Trimble, the Assembly election left your party wounded and in disarray,
has anything happened in the last 18 months to make you think fortunes
are going to get better for you?
DAVID TRIMBLE
I disagree with the comment about the party being in disarray, it’s
anything but. We’ve changed our constitution, we’ve got the party in very
good form at the moment and we’ve got an excellent team of candidates that
are standing, a blend of people with experience at Westminster, people
who got really good experience when they were in the Assembly and new candidates
as well and I think the public are going to be impressed and I’m certainly
proud of the team that we have.
NOEL THOMPSON
But you were wounded in 2003, you must have been, well we know you were,
you said you were?
DAVID TRIMBLE
Well that was that election, this is this election and we’re going to
fight this election positively because people have now seen over the course
of the 13 months that other parties have not succeeded. We’ve had no political
process in the course of the last year, we’re in a stalemate and the stalemate
looks as though it’s going to be there and I think the electorate are going
to see that the consequence of voting for the extremes has been damaging
to politics and Ulster and we need to see the centre being rebuilt and
that is what we hope that the electorate will do in this election.
NOEL THOMPSON
But many commentators would say that your party, far from claiming the
centre ground, is trying to out DUP the DUP?
DAVID TRIMBLE
No there is no change in our fundamental approach to this. We’re reasonable
people who approach matters constructively. If any party has changed its
position in the last two years it’s the DUP.
NOEL THOMPSON
(unclear) they’ve moved more towards centre ground perhaps?
DAVID TRIMBLE
Well the interesting thing with regard to them is they conducted a negotiation,
they said they were satisfied with the outcome yet they haven’t changed
a single word of the Belfast Agreement which a few years ago they declared
they were going to destroy. Now who has changed their position, not us.
We have stayed absolutely clearly on our position.
NOEL THOMPSON
But it was a position the electorate rejected?
DAVID TRIMBLE
No I don’t agree with that because the electorate endorsed our position.
NOEL THOMPSON
You ended up in third place in the Assembly election?
DAVID TRIMBLE
The electorate endorsed our position (unclear) the ’98 election, the
2001 election, yes other parties got ahead of us in 2003, but our basic
proposition is that the political institutions in Northern Ireland have
to be founded on an absolute commitment to peace and democracy, without
which they will not succeed. Now does any party disagree with that, because
that’s our fundamental position?
NOEL THOMPSON
Well the DUP would say that you said one thing and did another thing
in ’98, you mentioned it, you said there would be no Executive with unreconstructed
terrorists, in ’99 you said there would be no guns, no government. But
your opponents say, you did it, you went in?
DAVID TRIMBLE
But where are we now, and where is the Government? We stuck to that
principle and we said to parties, and we said to republicans that if they
do not move down the transition that was envisaged towards exclusively
peaceful and democratic means then we….
NOEL THOMPSON
But twice you said that and then went back in with them, that’s the
point?
DAVID TRIMBLE
We went in for the purpose of achieving progress and when republicans
failed we blew the whistle and the reason why we have suspension is because
we insisted on it in 2002 and I will not take, from a party that went into
government and stayed there quite happily and made no effort to put any
pressure on republicans, I will not take lessons from them on sticking
to the commitments that we made, which we did, in order to ensure, and
don’t forget we were the party that actually achieved decommissioning,
that has to be remembered.
NOEL THOMPSON
Well it’s a decommissioning which the unionist electorate rejected because
they didn’t think it was enough and the DUP will say, they were the ones
who actually pulled the plug in December because of the decommissioning,
in their view?
DAVID TRIMBLE
Let us get the facts, let us stick to the facts. As a result of our
efforts decommissioning began and it was repeated and then we decided in
October…
NOEL THOMPSON
But not to your satisfaction.
DAVID TRIMBLE
…let me finish Noel, I’m about to deal with the point. We decided in
October 2002 that there had not been sufficient progress, that there had
to be, there’s a whole point about having a transition, that you’re expecting
progress and because there hadn’t been sufficient progress we blew the
whistle. As for last December, the truth of the matter is that the DUP
were scared that they were going to find themselves in an administration.
That’s why they went round the country talking about sack cloth and ashes.
They’d suddenly realised that they were only one photograph away from having
to form an administration and they panicked.
NOEL THOMPSON
There was no administration formed and now we have Gerry Adams saying,
in no uncertain terms, that it’s time for the IRA to fold up its tent and
go, the DUP will say, we did that, we showed them in December?
DAVID TRIMBLE
No we have laid the foundation for that and we did that in the efforts
that we made in the (unclear) right up until 2002. The whole business since
2002 has been to try and get the acts of completion that were called for.
The whole political agenda was set in October 2002 and has remained there.
Unfortunately last December the DUP’s negotiation failed. Now we’ll see
what comes in the future. I have heard promises from Mr Adams before and
we have seen them not fulfilled and the timing of the present manoeuvre
is obviously related to the election. So we will wait to see what happens,
but I, my own assessment of the matter is that the republican movement
isn’t actually prepared to deliver completion. The issue crystallised at
that in 2002, and between 2002 and now, there have been three serious attempts
to try and get republicans to carry out those acts of completion and on
each occasion they failed, and on each occasion it’s for the same reason.
I think there is a systemic problem here and our view is that we’re not
actually going to get it. What you’re getting are manoeuvres from republicans,
we’ve had manoeuvres, we haven’t had completion and I would be very surprised
if it comes.
NOEL THOMPSON
But if there’s no difference, as you say, now in principle between yourselves
and the DUP on the matter of the Good Friday Agreement, they would take
great issue with that, but that’s your claim that there’s no difference
in principle. If there is no difference, people have now chosen the DUP
in their droves, the DUP is the main unionist party, why would people be
tempted to go back to you then?
DAVID TRIMBLE
Wait a minute. When people voted in November 2003, the position of the
DUP was not clear, it’s clearer now, and I think we’ll see where the electorate
go with this.
NOEL THOMPSON
Have you any evidence to say that they do not support the DUP in the
same or greater numbers …?
DAVID TRIMBLE
(Unclear) then do remember that the DUP actually failed to produce a
successful outcome to their negotiation, their negotiation …
NOEL THOMPSON
It’s not how it’s perceived though, it’s perceived that the DUP stuck
it to the IRA.
DAVID TRIMBLE
And failed to get an agreement, and the consequent …
NOEL THOMPSON
Their supporters say it’s because the IRA failed, not because the DUP
failed.
DAVID TRIMBLE
(Unclear) either way they present it, the reality is that there was
not a successful outcome to it, and I don’t think that the DUP are actually
going to be able to achieve the sort of progress we need. We need a situation
where we’re going to be bringing people together in Northern Ireland, not
dividing them. We need a situation where we try to persuade people to move
on from conflict to create a society that people can be at ease and work
together, and not to have a situation where people are continually harping
on the factors that have led to conflict.
NOEL THOMPSON
Yes, but Ian Paisley has said, even post the Northern Bank and the Robert
McCartney murder he is prepared to do business with republicans as long
as the IRA is gone.
DAVID TRIMBLE
Well ...
NOEL THOMPSON
Which is your position, presumably? So there is nothing to choose between
you, except the electorate has chosen them?
DAVID TRIMBLE
Well let’s see who the electorate do choose, and let us see whether
the claims that are made are borne out by the events. I think that people
see in the experience of a situation where some of the electorate moved
towards the parties on the extremes, has actually reinforced the stalemate
and we have had no significant progress over the next year, and you’ve
got to consider where society and politics will go if we remain stuck in
this stalemate, and where we still have parties that are still fundamentally,
in their approach to things, thinking in terms of a political conflict
rather than a situation where we’re trying to transcend that.
NOEL THOMPSON
Okay, but you have proposed a pact which would take that choice away
from people in many areas, and the DUP see that as just trying to save
your own skin, because every seat that your party holds is under potential
threat?
DAVID TRIMBLE
And every seat is under threat in every election. What we were actually
proposing to the DUP ...
NOEL THOMPSON
Well that’s not strictly proven, there has been safe seats which are
no longer safe seats, East Antrim for one?
DAVID TRIMBLE
What we were proposing to the DUP was a pact that would be aimed at
Sinn Fein to reduce the Sinn Fein representation, it would have succeeded
in doing so. The policy put forward by the DUP is one that would allow
Sinn Fein to grow and that is not in the interests of politics, and you
have to then ask the question, why is it faced with the choice between
minimising Sinn Fein, attacking Sinn Fein or at a course of action that
enables them to grow, why is it that the DUP prepare the latter, that’s
the question?
NOEL THOMPSON
Well because they say that there is no reason not to offer people a
choice everywhere, and then if they choose the DUP and Sinn Fein (unclear)
we stand?
DAVID TRIMBLE
What we need to do in this situation, what would be desirable in this
situation is to maximise the unionist vote in those situations where it
would increase unionist representation and that would have happened under
the proposals we put to them, and reduce Sinn Fein representation. Now
that I would have thought would have been a good …
NOEL THOMPSON
But why not offer unionists the choice in those constituencies where
there’s no chance of a nationalist taking a seat, you didn’t even want
to face that kind of competition?
DAVID TRIMBLE
We will face that competition, and we will succeed …
NOEL THOMPSON
The pact proposals were not to accept that kind of competition, (unclear)
the seats you hold (unclear) not to have a DUP challenge there?
DAVID TRIMBLE
We will see what happens when the time comes, and don’t suggest that
we are in anyway worried about this. We think actually the unionist electorate
would welcome a situation where there was greater co-operation amongst
unionists rather than the fighting that the DUP prefer, that’s what we
think the unionist electorate will prefer. But if the DUP don’t want to
work together, if their preference, if their priority is to attack other
unionists, we will defend ourselves and we will defend ourselves successfully.
I have no doubt about that at all, but I know what the unionist electorate
would prefer, they would prefer to see co-operation between unionists and
they would prefer to see Sinn Fein reduced in size in terms of Parliamentary
representation. That we could have done, but for the approach taken by
the DUP.
NOEL THOMPSON
What about your own position, you had a lead of 2000 votes at the last
Westminster election after a recount, I mean you’re under serious threat
yourself, aren’t you?
DAVID TRIMBLE
No, I’m quite confident, I was confident then. The recount was a stunt,
the recount was done, in my view, to give people the opportunity to gather
up a crowd for the disgraceful scenes we saw outside the count, and that
I think is a reflection on where some other parties are. I’m quite confidence
of the outcome there, and in our other seats as well.
NOEL THOMPSON
Can you confirm, we understand it, you opened a new office in Banbridge
in the last couple of weeks, did you have to close an office in Portadown
after just a few weeks?
DAVID TRIMBLE
No, no, no, there’s no truth in that, and actually it was several months
ago that we opened up the office in Banbridge, and we had an office in
Banbridge beforehand.
NOEL THOMPSON
Yes, so what happened to the Portadown office?
DAVID TRIMBLE
It’s there and it’s functioning.
NOEL THOMPSON
And it’s not closed?
DAVID TRIMBLE
It’s not closed.
NOEL THOMPSON
And you’ve no intentions of closing it?
DAVID TRIMBLE
No, no, no, no. No, I’m afraid some people throw some disinformation
around that (unclear).
NOEL THOMPSON
That’s why you’re here to clear it up.
DAVID TRIMBLE
If you bothered to check with me beforehand then you wouldn’t have had
to give air time to this untruth.
NOEL THOMPSON
You’re here to clear it up on air, you can’t complain about that. You
said at your party’s annual conference, you said tonight that your a party
of inclusivity, but you said that sectarianism was not in your DNA, how
do you reconcile that with the details in this "It’s Not Fair" document,
which many people see as a sectarian document itself, it says it’s not
fair to tax people more because they’re unionists, it’s not fair to discriminate
against Protestants in schools, it’s not fair to recruit police officers
on the basis of religion and it’s not fair that Protestants should be discriminated
against in employment?
DAVID TRIMBLE
Is there any suggestion, is there any suggestion that there should be
discrimination on the grounds of religious persuasion? We’ve had legislation
in Northern Ireland which is designed to outlaw …
NOEL THOMPSON
Yet it is you are deciding that there is, that’s where the argument
lies.
DAVID TRIMBLE
Wait a minute, wait a minute. If you look at the leaflet you’ll see
that it actually quotes from the department’s own equality impact assessment
and what we’re saying there is, quoting from the Departments’ own assessment,
that its policy with regard to water charges would be discriminatory in
its effect. Now you’re not going to …
NOEL THOMPSON
Because it would tax richer people more.
DAVID TRIMBLE
It goes further that view, you quoted earlier what the equality impact
assessment actually said and I think discrimination is wrong and I don’t
see why people should be turned round and because they point to acts of
discrimination and say this should not happen, that one should not then
be criticised for doing so.
NOEL THOMPSON
Ok we understand it has become something of an issue in North Down for
example, with the Alliance Party asking Lady Hermon to (unclear).
DAVID TRIMBLE
Maybe you should ask the Alliance Party why they’re generating an issue
about this. Are they in favour of discrimination?
NOEL THOMPSON
What about your own position, Mr. Trimble, if you lose one seat out
of the 6 you have will you resign? If you lose two seats, will you resign?
DAVID TRIMBLE
I am the servant of my party. I’ve never been anything other than the
servant of the party and I’ll continue because the party wishes me to do
so.
NOEL THOMPSON
Is there not an issue of personal pride in it, I mean, would you, if
you saw yourself as presiding over a party which lost …?
DAVID TRIMBLE
There are always personal considerations in this but my overall consideration
is a question of what is my duty and I have, that is what has guided me
through the last number of years. In all the difficult situations that
we have faced and we have faced some really difficult situations from when
we entered negotiations and where we carried through that to make progress
for the people here. Now we’ve achieved progress, Northern Ireland’s a
much better place than it was a decade ago and if, if I consider it’s my
duty to continue, I will and if I consider that it is my duty to do otherwise,
I will do otherwise.
*****
Program: Hearts & Minds
Date & Time: April 14, 2005 – 8pm
Subject Election platform
NOEL THOMPSON
Tonight though a no-show, Ian Paisley has declined our invitation to
share his thoughts with us this week, he’s the only main party leader to
do so. His deputy Peter Robinson is here instead.
Now you’ve brought your manifesto, I’m delighted because we haven’t
had a chance to see it, this is the last draft, and I do want to talk about
it, it seems Bob McCartney has had quite a hand in it. Let’s deal with
a couple of issues, he says you told him a mandatory coalition which includes
Sinn Fein under d’Hondt or any other system is out of the question, does
that appear in those words in that manifesto?
PETER ROBINSON
First of all, can I say from Dr Paisley’s point of view, Dr Paisley
has a speaking engagement in London and is attending that and will there
until late tomorrow, so that’s the reason he’s not with us today. We obviously
aren’t going to divulge the full details of our election manifesto until
Thursday 21st, today week, that’s when the manifesto will be launched.
But as you indicated we’ve had a very good relationship with Bob McCartney
and we had no difficulty in our conversations with him in providing him
with sight of a page of that document on an issue that he had raised. So
the precise words, I think are similar to those that you have spoken.
NOEL THOMPSON
But the precise words are important because I mean you don’t mention
anything about, for example, a voluntary coalition with Sinn Fein, (unclear)
you only talk about mandatory coalitions?
PETER ROBINSON
Well, you will see the full detail, because we believe that the way
forward in Northern Ireland is through a voluntary coalition indeed. I
have to say that if we can’t get a voluntary coalition off the ground then
basically we’ll be back to a position of having to make Direct Rule as
accountable and acceptable as possible and integrating Northern Ireland
more closely into the rest of the United Kingdom.
NOEL THOMPSON
Yes, but you could have a voluntary coalition with Sinn Fein?
PETER ROBINSON
You could have if Sinn Fein met the conditions but they don’t, nor do
we see them ever meeting those conditions. But I think many people in Northern
Ireland have given up on Sinn Fein ever reforming itself. Last December
the entry conditions were laid out very clearly, Gerry Adams in his party
political broadcast last night made it very clear that the Government of
the United Kingdom, the Government of the Republic of Ireland and the US
Government had sided with the DUP on those issues, they were right to do
so, because unlike the past, when the Ulster Unionist Party was prepared
to go into Government and take Sinn Fein/IRA on its word, we weren’t, we
required it all to be done upfront first, we required an end to (unclear).
NOEL THOMPSON
(Unclear) proposals (unclear), I do want to talk about them, (unclear).
PETER ROBINSON
(Unclear) come back to them.
NOEL THOMPSON
Let’s stick to the manifesto for the moment. Mr McCartney says you told
him it would be a generation, that’s 25 years, before Sinn Fein would be
decontaminated, as I think he put it, or you put it. That’s a big leap
from December when you were talking about a matter of months?
PETER ROBINSON
Let’s be clear, what we were talking about in terms of the generation
was how long it would take for the republican movement to divest itself
of its criminality and none of us can judge accurately how long that will
be, but it is endemic within the republican movement, they are inextricably
linked to criminality, and they have taken a choice very clearly over the
last number of months, they don’t want to leave it behind.
NOEL THOMPSON
So you’re prepared to wait 25 years?
PETER ROBINSON
We most certainly are not prepared to wait.
NOEL THOMPSON
You may have to?
PETER ROBINSON
Well no we’re not prepared to wait 25 years, the whole basis of our
argument and our manifesto is that we need to move on, and if people aren’t
prepared to enter the political process on the basis of exclusively peaceful
and democratic means then they should be left behind, the train should
move on. Those who are democrats should move on with Government.
NOEL THOMPSON
Well the SDLP say they’re not going to enter any kind of voluntary coalition,
so what you’re talking about is another 25 years of Direct Rule, what price
will the people of Northern Ireland pay for that?
PETER ROBINSON
They will pay a bigger price if they are to take into the heart of Government
those who are still involved in terrorist activity and criminal activity,
that would be the big price to pay. And it isn’t us that’s holding things
back, it’s those who can’t reform themselves and become exclusively democratic
and peaceful parties.
NOEL THOMPSON
So if the IRA do what Gerry Adams has said he wants them to do, sometime
in the next couple of months, you’re saying you’ll still have to wait a
generation before you’ll talk about sharing power with republicans?
PETER ROBINSON
I’m not going to get into the business of whatiffery, what if the IRA
reform, what if they do this, or what if they do that. They haven’t, there’s
no sign of them doing it, and therefore you’re asking me to contemplate
something that I don’t believe is going to happen.
NOEL THOMPSON
Mr Robinson, Gerry Adams does not make statements like that just out
of the blue, there’s a lot of speculation that (unclear).
PETER ROBINSON
… well I heard it all before …
NOEL THOMPSON
(Unclear) … there’s a move in the pipeline here?
PETER ROBINSON
Let’s be clear, you and I have been around for a long time in Ulster
politics. We have heard all of the statements from Gerry Adams in the past,
and we had all the pundits telling us how things would change and how everything
from now on was going to be different, but it wasn’t. They’re still there,
the IRA still hasn’t gone away, they’re still involved in terrorist and
criminal activity as indeed we have seen over the last number of months
to our great cost.
NOEL THOMPSON
Because you see Bertie Ahern has said that this policy of waiting a
generation wasn’t the impression he got from Ian Paisley, he thought that
that was not DUP policy, has this been a change?
PETER ROBINSON
Again, the term of waiting a generation isn’t one that I have used in
the past. I have indicated that I believe that it could well take a generation
for the republican movement to divest itself of the criminality which is
endemic within it. That’s a fact of life, I suspect, it’s a sad fact of
life, but it’s up to them to prove different to the community. And rather
than dealing with the whatiffery, come back to me when they have done those
things and then we’ll look at the way forward with them.
NOEL THOMPSON
Well we have to think about what might happen in the weeks before and
after an election. I mean there are many people who think that you’ll be
in negotiations, okay maybe not directly with Sinn Fein before Christmas.
If the IRA said in a few weeks time we’re going to do what Gerry Adams
wants us to, we’re abandoning armed struggle forever and ever, you’d be
faced with a different prospect?
PETER ROBINSON
I wouldn’t be faced with anything, on the basis of anything that Gerry
Adams or the IRA would say. We went into the previous negotiations on the
basis of not believing what Gerry Adams and the IRA would say. That’s why
we insisted that they had to divvy up first, we weren’t going to take them
on their word.
David Trimble was suckered by that, the Ulster Unionist Party was suckered
by that, they went into Government, took them on their word and found out
that their word wasn’t worth a wrap but now …
NOEL THOMPSON
You were (unclear) way you (unclear) going into Government. Yes you
were.
PETER ROBINSON
No we weren’t, we, this is a fantasy.
NOEL THOMPSON
The British Government produced papers which talked about setting legislation
in process to devolve Policing and Justice within a few ...
PETER ROBINSON
Let’s, let’s just, let’s look at the facts rather than your vague impression
of the facts. The facts are these, that the Government’s comprehensive
proposals made it very clear that there were conditions upon which we would
move forward. The conditions were that there had to be a total end to paramilitary
activity, a total end to criminality …
NOEL THOMPSON
That’s not what it says in the proposals.
PETER ROBINSON
It is precisely what it says.
NOEL THOMPSON
It says we are confident the steps will (unclear) be taken (unclear).
PETER ROBINSON
It is precisely what it says in the proposals.
NOEL THOMPSON
… to provide for an immediate, full and permanent cessation of all paramilitary
activity, the prospect of a new era involving ...
PETER ROBINSON
I’m talking about the Government’s proposal, I’m not talking about anything
that the IRA or Sinn Fein might say.
NOEL THOMPSON
(Unclear).
PETER ROBINSON
The Governments requirement in the comprehensive agreement was for a
complete end to paramilitary activity, a complete end to all types of criminality
and total and complete decommissioning, which had to be verifiable, which
had to be timetabled and which had to be transparent, transparent with
witnesses and transparent with photographs.
NOEL THOMPSON
Illegal activity doesn’t define it in these proposals.
PETER ROBINSON
That’s right. We had at one stage criminal activity down …(unclear).
NOEL THOMPSON
So you didn’t get that pinned down did you?
PETER ROBINSON
Well if you would listen you would see how foolish your comment is.
There are acts that can take place which are illegal but not criminal,
illegal is more widely embracing than the word criminal. All illegal activity,
that includes all criminal activity and other activity, but which would
not have been criminal.
NOEL THOMPSON
But it is a matter of definition (unclear), who’s definition are you
going by? Are you going by Michael McDowell’s definition or by the definition
of paragraph 13, I mean (unclear)?
PETER ROBINSON
Well Michael McDowell as a member of the Irish Cabinet would have supported
the definition that was in the document.
NOEL THOMPSON
What about the devolution of Policing and Justice, I mean that was going
to happen within 2 years said the Government?
PETER ROBINSON
No it wasn’t going to happen within two years said the Government. The
position was that we refused to go down the road that David Trimble had
in his secret talks with the IRA, where at that stage he had given a defined
period of time when it would occur.
By August of this year, David Trimble will have left a situation where
Gerry Kelly could have been appointed as a Minister for Policing and Justice.
Under our proposals it wouldn’t have happened at all unless the community
in Northern Ireland wanted it to happen, we’d given them the veto.
NOEL THOMPSON
Alright, that the British Government would commit to introducing into
Parliament by the summer of 2005 the legislation necessary to permit the
devolution of Policing and Justice to take place?
PETER ROBINSON
Which could only be activated, if the Assembly voted for it, and the
First Minister brought forward a proposal. I can’t see Ian Paisley bringing
forward a proposal, I can’t see the Assembly passing it and I can’t see
the unionist community in Northern Ireland accepting it in the circumstances
…
NOEL THOMPSON
You see as far as republicans are concerned it was the sack cloth and
ashes comments which stopped this deal going through, so you were tantalizingly
close to signing up to that?
PETER ROBINSON
Well let’s be clear we have no difficulty in terms of asking people
to go forward on the basis of complete and verifiable decommissioning and
then …
NOEL THOMPSON
But you weren’t talking about 25 years of decontamination at that point?
PETER ROBINSON
Well we made it very clear that there had to be an end to all of their
paramilitary and criminal activity and all weapons had to be decommissioned.
That’s what was required, they couldn’t sign up to it in December, they
can’t sign up to it today and I’ve made my best judgement as I am entitled
to and I have to base strategies on that judgement, I don’t see them doing
it in this generation. They may, they may surprise us all but it will be
a great surprise if they do.
NOEL THOMPSON
But your strategy in December was not based on that length of time,
you were talking about a few months of verification, that’s changed hasn’t
it?
PETER ROBINSON
And it’s changed to the extent that we have seen that they are not prepared
to give up their criminality, even in circumstances that we laid down last
December ...
NOEL THOMPSON
So no matter what the IRA says in the next few months? I just want to
…
PETER ROBINSON
Yes I want to clear it up too. At the very time where they were negotiating
with the Government on these issues they were planning the largest bank
robbery in the history of the United Kingdom, that I think gives a fairly
clear indication to the mindset of the republican movement.
NOEL THOMPSON
So whatever the IRA does in the next few months you will not change
that view of a generation? You will not be in any kind of talks …
PETER ROBINSON
I think it’s about five times now you’ve used this term about the generation
…
NOEL THOMPSON
(Unclear).
PETER ROBINSON
… we’ve indicated and you will see in our manifesto that we are not
prepared to go into a mandatory coalition with Sinn Fein until we are convinced
the circumstances have changed and we see no sign of that happening.
NOEL THOMPSON
So you don’t talk of a generation, you don’t given any timescale at
all?
PETER ROBINSON
I don’t believe the word generation is used in (unclear) manifesto.
NOEL THOMPSON
Is there a timescale given?
PETER ROBINSON
Now look, we just don’t see it happening.
NOEL THOMPSON
You’ve got to read it out to me, why don’t you?
PETER ROBINSON
Well why would I launch a …
NOEL THOMPSON
… to clear up the point.
PETER ROBINSON
Why would I launch (unclear) will, I hope you’ll bring me back on the
21st and we’ll talk about it.
NOEL THOMPSON
Bob McCartney’s clearly of the view that (unclear).
PETER ROBINSON
You haven’t asked any other political party of the details of their
manifesto before they’ve launched their manifesto.
NOEL THOMPSON
But this ….
PETER ROBINSON
I’ve made it very clear that our position is that Sinn Fein/IRA could
not sign up to the entry conditions that were required. They couldn’t meet
the standards that we set down last December. They can’t meet those standards
today and I have to make my best judgement because you have to have a political
strategy based on what is achievable and what is attainable.
NOEL THOMPSON
So it is feasible by December for example that you could be in talks?
It’s conceivable?
PETER ROBINSON
I hope that immediately this election is over we will meet in talks
with the Government about having a voluntary coalition with those who are
democrats.
NOEL THOMPSON
You know what I mean you could be in talks ….
PETER ROBINSON
Well I hope you know what I mean.
NOEL THOMPSON
(Unclear) a power sharing Executive again by December, by anytime as
long as you were satisfied?
PETER ROBINSON
We will be going on the basis that we have outlined in our manifesto
which is a belief that we need to have a voluntary coalition with those
who are exclusively committed to peaceful and democratic means.
NOEL THOMPSON
You said the most important thing in this election is to prevent Sinn
Fein becoming the biggest party. You turned down an alliance with the Ulster
Unionists, which would possibly have taken two seats off Sinn Fein and
reduced their overall vote in other constituencies. Why did you not go
for that?
PETER ROBINSON
Well, first of all, we had a meeting with the Ulster Unionist Party
which was presided over by the Grand Master of the Orange Order. At that
meeting we made it very clear that there were two seats in Northern Ireland
which, more than any others, could be at risk from nationalists and that
those were the seats that we needed to pay our attention to. If indeed
we went beyond that we were prepared to consider other matters but those
were the key issues. The Ulster Unionists made it clear that they weren’t
interested in any deal on those two seats. If you don’t have a deal on
the two key seats then it would be ludicrous to look at the rest of the
propositions. The rest of the propositions were about the Ulster Unionist
Party saving their own skin, not fighting David Trimble in Upper Bann,
not fighting Roy Beggs in East Antrim and so forth. There is no reason
why the unionist community shouldn’t have the opportunity to vote in those
areas (unclear).
NOEL THOMPSON
Well one reason might be to reduce Sinn Fein’s ….
PETER ROBINSON
Not, not in those areas it wouldn’t.
NOEL THOMPSON
But overall …(unclear).
PETER ROBINSON
I was just about to come onto the other issue. I am a unionist, I want
people in Northern Ireland to vote for unionist principles. I am not in
the business of abandoning sections of Northern Ireland, it would have
been about a third of Northern Ireland that David Trimble was asking us
to allow our voters to vote for nationalist politicians and for nationalist
principles.
On the same day that he was trying to convince us that we should stand
aside for the SDLP. The SDLP brought out a document telling us that they
were even more republican than Sinn Fein, that they were better united
Irelanders than Sinn Fein was. Are we going to ask the unionist community
to give a vote for a united Ireland (unclear) or a united Ireland policy.
I don’t believe they want to do that.
NOEL THOMPSON
(Unclear) been a unionist tactical vote of course and Michael McGimpsey
is now able to say that it was sectarianism which broke down the pact because
you couldn’t bring yourself to ask your people to vote, even tactically,
for nationalists?
PETER ROBINSON
Well I don’t believe that we should vote tactically for nationalists.
I believe that the people in Northern Ireland should have the opportunity
to vote for unionist principles. I’m a unionist, I want to increase the
unionist vote, I don’t want to give up territory to nationalists.
NOEL THOMPSON
But you said the most important thing was to reduce Sinn Fein’s performance
so they wouldn’t be able to say they’re the biggest party and get a worldwide
boost, as you yourself put it?
PETER ROBINSON
Well first of all I agree with you that that is a priority. I don’t
believe that the battle any longer is a battle for who speaks for unionism,
that’s I think settled. The Democratic Unionist Party speaks for the unionist
community. This is a battle about who will speak for Northern Ireland.
And I believe that the voters, of their own right, in a free election,
will be able to come out and ensure that the Democratic Unionist Party
speaks for Northern Ireland and is a lead party in Northern Ireland.
NOEL THOMPSON
So beating the Ulster Unionists is more important these days than smashing
Sinn Fein?
PETER ROBINSON
Well I thought I’d said the opposite. I thought I’d said that the battle
about who speaks for unionism is over, we’ve won, we’ve won that, we’ve
had two elections where we’ve topped the poll and the people have clearly
indicated their view on that issue.
This election is about who speaks for Northern Ireland, that is a battle
between the Democratic Unionist Party and Sinn Fein and nobody can deny
it. It will be one of those two parties that will come out on top and I’m
calling on the unionist community to vote for the only party that can do
that.
NOEL THOMPSON
Let’s try and look beyond the election. There might soon be a time when
the Ulster Unionist Party is without David Trimble, there might soon come
a time when your own party is without its long time leader. Are you the
man to unite unionism at that stage?
PETER ROBINSON
Well I believe actually that unionism is uniting already. Unionism is
uniting behind the Democratic Unionist Party and we have seen that over
the past number of months and years. More and more people are joining our
party, more and more people are voting for the Democratic Unionist Party
and we’re seeing us taking the lead. Indeed, effectively the Ulster Unionist
Party has (unclear).
NOEL THOMPSON
(Unclear) the change of course?
PETER ROBINSON
Well of course and the people who will determine that will be the unionist
voters of Northern Ireland. But let’s be very clear, this party isn’t complacent,
we will fight for every vote, we will put our case before the people and
we will urge the people to vote for a unionist (unclear).
NOEL THOMPSON
Just answer the question very quickly. Are you the leader, the potential
leader of that unionism?
PETER ROBINSON
I will play whatever part I can to encourage unionists to unite behind
a leadership that is working.
 
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