Jeffrey Donaldson Quits UUP

Rebel Ulster Unionist Jeffrey Donaldson has quit the party along with two newly elected assembly members.

The Lagan Valley MP said tonight he was leaving the UUP with fellow anti-Agreement UUP assembly-members Arlene Foster and Norah Beare. Donaldson said: "We have made the decision that we are resigning from the Ulster Unionist Party and will be considering our options."

One could involve him joining the Rev. Ian Paisley`s Democratic Unionists. He confirmed: "I have been offered a position on the DUP`s negotiating team to participate in the negotiations taking place in January and will be taking a decision after the holidays."

"This is a sad day for me. I have been a member of the Ulster Unionist Party ever since I was a teenager. However I have come to the conclusion that it is not the party I joined and it has abandoned the principles I believe in." 

Mr Donaldson has been a thorn in the side of Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble since the moment he walked away from Castle Buildings just before the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998.

It is understood he is considering taking up a long- standing offer to join the rival Democratic Unionist Party.

In June, Mr Donaldson, David Burnside and Martin Smyth were suspended from the party after resigning the party whip at Westminster. 

They did not support the Good Friday Agreement and called for Mr Trimble to change party policy or step down from the post. In response, Mr Trimble said they should quit the party. 

The rebel MPs challenged their suspension in the High Court, where it was ruled to be invalid.

In September, the 900-member Ulster Unionist Council met to discuss disciplinary action against the MPs.

 They voted in favor of party leader David Trimble's motion calling for the MPs to again take party instructions in the Westminster parliament.

The three MPs had called the meeting to try to stop disciplinary moves against them, but voting was not reached on their motion. 

Donaldson's best chance of toppling Trimble appeared to have gone. There have been increasing signs that senior party figures were running out of patience with Donaldson whose attacks on Trimble have increased following last month's assembly election. 

Last week, the party's executive passed a motion calling on him to say if he would retake the party's parliamentary whip and support the policies of the party.

The executive voted in favor of the motion which said the Lagan Valley MP's behaviour had been detrimental to the interests of unionists.

The motion was carried with the backing of Mr Trimble after members of the executive voted 55 to 33 in favor of taking action against the anti-Agreement MP.

Donaldson protested that the move was a "purge of him" as two other rebel MPs, Martin Smyth and David Burnside will not face similar action. He said the party was no longer the broad church it had been and said he had been told to accept party policy or leave. 

Trimble denied that there was a conspiracy to purge Mr Donaldson from the party.

Also leaving the UUP is Arlene Foster, a party officer and honorary secretary, who is a close ally of Donaldson. She leaves with newly elected MLA Norah Beare, who used to work in Donaldson's office.

Dec. 18, 2003

PAISLEY WELCOMES UUP RESIGNATIONS

Democratic Unionist leader Rev Ian Paisley welcomed the resignations today of Ulster Unionist rebel Jeffrey Donaldson and two other UUP MLA's, saying they dealt a "hammer blow" to the rival UUP.

The North Antrim MP said, "These three MLAs have recognised that their mandate to work for a new and better agreement for Northern Ireland cannot be achieved from within the confines of the UUP. The Trimble-led Ulster Unionists are intent on reviving and resuscitating the old, failed Belfast Agreement, an agreement which almost two out of three unionist voters resoundingly rejected last month."

"It is evident that the leadership of the UUP remains wedded to a process that has done nothing but damage the Union and unionism," said Paisley.

Paisley said unionists were beginning to come together to remedy "the failure and deceit" of Mr Trimble's policies. 

"The DUP will work with unionists of a like mind who share the DUP's goals of securing a stable and lasting settlement in our Province," he said.

"We look forward to talking to Jeffrey, Arlene and Norah to find a way in which we can improve the unionist position and best move forward and secure a fair deal for the people of Northern Ireland."

Donaldson, MP for Lagan Valley, said tonight: "After five years of arguing within the party for a better agreement, I have had to consider how we can best achieve that. Unfortunately I have been excluded by David Trimble from his negotiating team and I was threatened as recently as last Friday with expulsion from the party."

"I have come to the view that the Ulster Unionist Party no longer provides the vehicle for me to use my talents to achieve what I was mandated to work for. The meeting of the party executive last Friday was the final straw."

"I concluded that the party is out of touch with the views of ordinary unionists, the two thirds of the unionist electorate who reject the Agreement."

"I cannot see how the UUP could ever be the majority party in Northern Ireland or provide the leadership that is required, certainly under David Trimble's leadership."

Donaldson, a protege of former UUP leader Lord Molyneaux and former constituency agent for Enoch Powell when he was the MP for South Down, said he had long argued for a strong unionist movement. 

The Lagan Valley MP said a realigned unionist movement could "deliver a better agreement" in Northern Ireland commanding the support of both unionists and nationalists.

With Sinn Féin emerging the largest nationalist party, he argued that a stronger unionist voice was also needed.

"We are in a situation where Sinn Féin could at the next Westminster election swallow up the three SDLP seats and they could emerge not just the largest nationalist party but the largest party," he said.

"If unionists want to avoid that nightmare scenario they have to forge a more united movement and that is why I have taken this decision."

Politics

Ulster Unionist Party officers will meet today to examine the resignations of Jeffrey Donaldson and two other Assembly members. Irish Times P5. The meeting comes amid calls for the UUP leader David Trimble to resign. Irish News P10, News Letter P8.

Editorial in The Guardian asks whether the DUP will one day be willing to sit down with nationalists, specifically Sinn Fein, in arrangements that will suit them both. The Guardian P15

The DUP's Nigel Dodds said that the challenge for the new year will be to find a lasting settlement for the north. Mr Dodds accepted that his party did not have a majority in the assembly and any return to devolution should have support from both nationalists and unionists. Irish News P3; News Letter P9

Regular column by Roy Garland in the Irish News on the Protestant Interface Network who went to Meath to visit the Battle of the Boyne site. Alienated parties in the north are now faced with the responsibility of seeking to accommodate each other, he said. Irish News P2.

Program: Inside Politics 
Date & Time: Dec. 20, 2003 1300 
Subject: Ulster Unionism 

MARK DEVENPORT

Downing Street might have provided the venue for talks this week with Ian Paisley heading in to see Tony Blair on Monday and a series of pro-Agreement parties meeting both Mr Blair and Bertie Ahern on Wednesday but there was no doubt where the real focus of the political drama lay namely in the Lisburn constituency office of the Lagan Valley MP Jeffrey Donaldson, who announced on Thursday his departure from the Ulster Unionist Party.

Donaldson is quitting together witht wo other close colleagues, the Assembly members Arlene Foster and Nora Beare. There seems little doubt about where they¹re heading, straight into the open arms of the welcoming, Ian Paisley.

If that happens the DUP will be left sitting on an Assembly team of 33, 9 ahead of the Ulster Unionists on 24. With the Assembly suspended that arithmetic may seem all a bit academic but if devolution were to be restored that would give the DUP four ministerial places around an Executive table and reduce the Ulster Unionists to two, the same number as Sinn Fein and the SDLP. 

So is Jeffrey Donaldson¹s resignation the moment which marks the Ulster Unionists reduction to permanent minority status, or does it provide an opportunity for the party to rebuild around one clear pro-Agreement message?

I¹ll discuss these points later in the programme with the Strangford Assembly member and Trimble confidante David McNarry but first I¹m joined from London by the South Antrim MP David Burnside who joined Jeffrey Donaldson in his parliamentary rebellion over the recent British/Irish Joint Declaration. 

David Burnside welcome to Inside Politics. Thanks for joining us. You¹re on record as saying that you are no Paisleyite. I presume we can therefore count out the possibility of you following Jeffrey Donaldson¹s example?

DAVID BURNSIDE

Well I¹ve no intention of resigning from the Ulster Unionist Party and I¹ve no intention of joining the DUP but I intend to work as I have done all my life for greater unionist unity and when I look at the long term I believe that objective can be achieved. I believe we can build a united Ulster Unionist Party or movement in the future, but it will be some time in the future. 

MARK DEVENPORT

Isn¹t it sort of happening though as we speak under the banner of Ian Paisley?

DAVID BURNSIDE

I don¹t believe it can happen under the banner of Ian Paisley because Paisleyism has always been a minority within unionism. Ian is a very strong personality, a dominating personality who¹s been in the Ulster political scene for well over 30 years. I see historically the DUP Paisleyite element as being 25/30% of unionism. It always has been there, it always will be there, it¹s an essential part, it¹s an important part, but is a minority part. 

Because of the failure of the Ulster Unionist Party leadership in recent years we have increased the support for the present DUP, but I do not believe the future is a united party under Paisley as I do not believe to be very honest with you Mark that David is capable, David Trimble is capable of uniting unionism now.

MARK DEVENPORT

So you think that now Jeffrey has gone David Trimble should go?

DAVID BURNSIDE

Well, I look long term. I believe it is essential, medium to long term, it is essential that we re-unite unionism in one movement that we have one united party, one united leadership, one strategy, one agreed series of tactics in future negotiations in defending and representing the unionist cause and I believe that it will be post-Paisley and post-Trimble.

MARK DEVENPORT

So in effect you¹re saying that maybe David Trimble should go in order to clear the line for that, are you?

DAVID BURNSIDE

I¹m saying in medium to long term leaders come and leaders go. I believe for historic reasons. If you take the 2 elements Ian Paisley because of his history and I¹ve many friends in the DUP and I work very well with them and I want to unite with them politically to try and get a better deal in the failed Belfast Agreement. Ian Paisley has been seen to be a divisive element within Protestantism within the Orange family within unionism. That doesn¹t mean at times that we have united. I remember back when we had the United Ulster Unionist Council, I will sit down with the DUP, I will sit down with all other unionists to try and unite together, but I believe that it will be post Paisley and post Trimble.

MARK DEVENPORT

You¹ve said that you believe that Paisleyism represent a minority within unionism but whatever you, however you want to characterise the modern day DUP I mean the arithmetic I was giving there earlier they¹re going to be sitting on a 33 seat Assembly team I mean can Š ?

DAVID BURNSIDE

And why? And why Mark? Look at Jeffrey¹s result, look at my result. The unionist people spoke clearly in the recent election. I topped the poll in South Antrim, first time standing as an Assembly member. Those who are unhappy with this Agreement, those who voted for the Agreement are not living in an Northern Ireland with an Agreement that was promised. It is failed and the unionist people have spoken very clearly. It will have to be a combination of the DUP and people like Jeffrey and people like myself and to the element of unionism that¹s flogging a dead horse at the present time with a failed Agreement they should be very very careful that they¹re not going to take the Ulster Unionist Party into a rump which will be little better than a UPNI Alliance, alliance, if you understand what I¹m saying and that will be a minority voice. I intend to be at the centre of and contribute to uniting unionism to be a strong dominant united force on behalf of the political unionism in Northern Ireland and I will play my role in that. 
 MARK DEVENPORT

But do you think that rump minority status can be avoided by the Ulster Unionists because that gap seems to be pretty significant on the face of it right now between the Ulster Unionists and the DUP?

DAVID BURNSIDE

The straw that broke the camel¹s back was that Executive meeting 2 weeks ago. I¹m not on the Executive but from all reports, from all sides of the party and all individuals in it it was a terrible terrible meeting and it appeared to be a concerted attempt, an organised attempt to drive Jeffrey and Arlene out of the party but especially to drive Jeffrey out. Jeffrey¹s not perfect we know, but Jeffrey is a principled man and he stood on policies that I agree with, that reflect unionist opinion. Any party which drives out people like Jeffrey Donaldson, I think he tactically made a mistake, I¹m very sorry, I tried on Wednesday with Jim Molyneaux and Martin Smyth to stop Jeffrey going.

I¹m very sorry that Arlene¹s gone. She¹s a young officer, a great personality and a great figure within unionism with a great future in my opinion. I think it¹s a tactical mistake to have left the party. I think the party should have been sitting down quietly looking at the election results, reflecting on how we got from being the major party in Westminster and the major party at Stormont to being the 3rd party in popular votes. There¹s something seriously wrong at the top and the head of the party and anybody who doesn¹t face up to that fact has got their head in the sand.

MARK DEVENPORT

So that sounds to me just on the face of it, like a Trimble must go message from you?

DAVID BURNSIDE

People must sit and think and reflect and David must sit and think and reflect, on how in Westminster we now have a Ulster Unionist Parliamentary Party with 3 members taking the whip. Martin Smyth and myself, not in receipt of the whip because we are refusing it, not because we are refusing, we said that we would re-take the whip and the Party haven¹t been able to have the dignity to say that we can re-take the whip after Jeffrey, Martin and I voted against what we warned against in September, this International Monitoring Body which if it ever takes place will be a farce and it won¹t expel Sinn Fein from an Executive and because of their past misdemeanours, illegal activities and it won¹t in my opinion expel them in the future. It will be toothless. We said we were against that, we voted against it in principle and we then wrote to the Chief Whip and said we would resume the whip as was the direction from the Ulster Unionist Council. We didn¹t receive it. 

MARK DEVENPORT

In a sense did you and Martin Smyth allow the Trimbleites to divide and rule the 3 MPs because that Ulster Unionist Executive motion was specifically moving against Jeffrey Donaldson and I didn¹t hear you or Martin Smyth say move against him and you¹re moving against all 3 of us?

DAVID BURNSIDE

I¹m not a member of the Executive, Martin was at the Executive and Martin¹s position is very clear. I think it was dreadful that there was a move against Jeffrey Donaldson but you must speak to the people who organised and orchestrated that. I will continue my position as with the confidence of my South Antrim Unionist Association with the strong mandate and support I have from the people of South Antrim and I will work with fellow unionists in my own party, the Ulster Unionist Party and with the DUP and other unionists.

MARK DEVENPORT

There are some Trimble supporters who may be see this as a blessing in disguise because they believe they will now be able to re-orient the party towards a more clear pro-Agreement message. What would be your counter to that?

DAVID BURNSIDE

Well if they want to go, if they want to become a minor insignificant players within Ulster politics that¹s the route to embark upon. If they want to end up as a UPNI allied rump with very little electoral support that¹s the right way to achieve that objective. It was tried. If you can¹t realise you¹ve made mistakes, it¹s all right we all make mistakes but if you can¹t realise you¹ve made mistakes you¹re seriously out of touch with the real world of politics and our party really must sit back in a period of calm and see the direction that the Ulster Unionist Party is going and I would hate to leave the Ulster Unionist Party, I have said I think to you Mark and I¹ve said at the Ulster Unionist Council I resigned as a much younger man than I am now way back, way back in 1972/73 in protest against the Stormont Government I joined, Bill Craig and Vanguard. We then came together in the Treble UC in a more united way in the mid 70s. I¹ve been there, I¹ve seen that, I¹ve done that. I want to work now for a united unionist party within Northern Ireland and it¹s going to be very very difficult. But that¹s my objective and that¹s what I¹m going to work for and that¹s what the people want. They¹re sick to death of unionist division. I believe we can achieve and it will be post Paisley and post Trimble united unionism and when we have united unionism, the union will be secure, we¹ll get a better deal, an acceptable Stormont, not the unworkable going from crisis to crisis system that we have had in the last 3 or 4 years.

MARK DEVENPORT

David Burnside, thanks very much for talking to us on Inside Politics. Well I Œm joined by another Ulster Unionist Strangford Assembly member and close associate of David Trimble, David McNarry.

Mr McNarry you¹ve clashed vehemently both in public with Jeffrey Donaldson and in internal party meetings presumably your general view is that, this is good riddance?

DAVID McNARRY

First of all let me welcome David Burnside¹s clear intentions on your piece that he¹s staying within the party and I hope that those that he associates with will hold the same view as we move into the new year. What David was saying, what was clear and I would agree with him is, that divided parties cannot and haven¹t sustained electoral support and that¹s where the Ulster Unionist Party is at the moment. We need to get our internal discipline right. We need to get it on key and we need to have everybody adhering to the disciplines without anybody wishing or thinking that they are above it. That all said, where we are now, to move on and get around the table as a party as an Assembly group and then see what consensus can be reached, as we develop our approach for the forthcoming review in January.

MARK DEVENPORT

Presumably though you will be the kind of Ulster Unionist who would think right we¹ve lost some of the sceptics, we can maybe re-orient ourselves in a more clear unambiguous pro-Agreement frame, would that be where you are coming from in general terms?

DAVID McNARRY

Well as we approach the review and the review is going to very, very important Mark, we will be developing quite confident that we will be developing new policies, cut and fitted for the circumstances in which we find ourselves, post Agreement and post Election. There may be a big irony that when those policies are clear and can be seen and we¹ve agreed them that they are policies that Jeffrey Donaldson would not necessarily disagree with. 

MARK DEVENPORT

So, you¹re saying that in fact without Jeffrey Donaldson the party may harden up its line anyway because there¹s only 2 ways that you can go, one is away from the Agreement and one is more clearly in line with the Agreement?

DAVID McNARRY

We¹re going into circumstances where our approach is about the failures of others. Our approach also has to take note of the price that we paid because others let us down and others failed us. We¹re not going to make those mistakes again and therefore what we¹re going to do is to present the Ulster Unionist Party as a party that can play a role and a future role in Northern Ireland politics.

MARK DEVENPORT

David Burnside, you welcomed him saying he¹s going to stay within the fold but he had a lot of other things to say besides. For instance that he didn¹t believe the David Trimble was capable of uniting unionism and that whilst he didn¹t call immediately to David Trimble to go, he made it pretty clear that in the medium to long term he could only really only foresee a future for unionism post Paisley and post Trimble. I mean he¹s effectively saying that your leader strategy has completely brought about this debacle?

DAVID McNARRY

Well I think if you take what he was saying that he¹s actually saying both David and Ian you know are, don¹t offer anything for the future. The interesting thing that David Burnside didn¹t say was who takes over from Trimble. But let¹s look at it, who would take over from Trimble tomorrow, inside the Ulster Unionist Party, who¹s going to be rushing to do it?

MARK DEVENPORT

Well some people for instance say Sir Reg Empey is an obvious contender and yet in the Belfast Telegraph just a few days ago you were attacking not only Jeffrey Donaldson but Sir Reg Empey and Jim Rodgers saying that their mediation was self serving, I mean was that wise?

DAVID McNARRY

Well, my own position is very clear, I¹m close to 40 years in this party. I believe that Jeffrey Donaldson has made a great mistake, in terms of his decision and an even bigger mistake if he has defected. I believe that the opportunity will be in Ulster unionism to work out, a working relationship with cooperation with other unionists and I think we¹ve got to do that in terms of what we¹re trying to do for devolution in Northern Ireland if people are serious about restoring devolution to Northern Ireland. I¹m going to admit that in the heat of moments people sometimes say and I¹m guilty of it, I want to come back into our Assembly group when it meets in January with a clean sheet of paper and I want to all my colleagues to be working as a team. That¹s what I said at the first Assembly group meeting I attended 3 weeks ago. I want to be in a team and can I be assured that there is going to be a team and a team that¹s going to be cohesive and work together on coherent policies. I think we can do that.

MARK DEVENPORT

So just on your comments on Sir Reg Empey are you saying that you now regret those comments where you appeared to be casting aspersions on his mediating role? 

DAVID McNARRY

I very rarely regret what I say because I think long and hard before I say anything. The situation is that my comments were directed at 2 people who were wearing different caps. They were wearing caps of senior officers. I found it incredible that those who are charged with the duty to act as officers of our party would say in public, that the Ulster Unionist Party was in danger of disintegration and that the officers had lost control and that is that statement that I challenged.

MARK DEVENPORT

Do you think that your party leader David Trimble¹s position is more assured as a result of what has happened this week?

DAVID McNARRY

I think what is assured for David Trimble is now an opportunity to present to the party his credentials for leadership between now and March and that will be the crucial period with David Trimble leading the party into the review with us having agreed as I said and I will stress we will be adopting an approach from policies that Jeffrey probably would find hard to argue with and he should have realised that before he decided to move and I think that David Trimble¹s future is guaranteed between now and March. Why do I say March, and that¹s because our Annual General Meeting is in March and we will elect a new leader.

MARK DEVENPORT

Not a very long guarantee though? I mean just finally on Jeffrey Donaldson Š

DAVID McNARRY

It¹s long enough in Ulster Unionist terms, in that there is no challenge out there Mark and if anybody wants to challenge the normal time to challenge the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party is in March bear in mindŠ

MARK DEVENPORT

Would you guess that the party would have a new leader in 12 weeks time?

DAVID McNARRY

No I do not. I don¹t think that will happen at all, but bear in mind David Trimble has been challenged umpteen times, until it was becoming nauseating and that people didn¹t accept those decisions. That is why I¹m saying that I believe that what the unionist membership, the Ulster Unionist Party membership are craving for is discipline and even myself as an abuser of the indiscipline will say I¹m prepared to accept the lines that people take, providing everybody else does that. But we cannot go into a room and have a vote and agree something and no sooner are people out, than they¹re talking to you telling you that they disagree with it. It¹s no way for a party to behave.

MARK DEVENPORT

Just finally you declined my invitation to say that it was good riddance to Jeffrey Donaldson but do you believe that your party is now better off without him?

DAVID McNARRY

I¹m sad that Jeffrey has departed. If he¹s defected I think he¹ll have to live with that. Jeffrey had a contribution to make to unionism through Ulster Unionism. It remains to be seen if my Party failed to discipline Jeffrey and that Jeffrey was unable to adhere to any discipline whether or not the DUP will succeed where we have failed.

MARK DEVENPORT

David McNarry thanks very much for joining us on Inside Politics.

Program: GMU
Date & Time: Dec. 22, 2003 7.09
Subject: UUP to meet over resignations

WENDY AUSTIN

Ulster Unionist Party officers are to meet to discuss the fall out from last week¹s resignations. Jeffrey Donaldson, of course, one of 3 Ulster Unionist Assembly members to quit the party, and joining us now our political editor, Mark Devenport.

To the last story, one wonders how important things like this really are sometimes, but anyway, it¹s a kind of internecine strife still going on, will the loss of Jeffrey Donaldson, Arlene Foster and Nora Beare have lanced the boil, or is this not going to go away?

MARK DEVENPORT

I don¹t think it¹s going to go away. There are still, you know, grave differences of opinion about Jeffrey Donaldson¹s departure, and what it means for the future of Ulster Unionism, there may be some people close to the leader who see this as a bit of a blessing, they see a silver lining, believe that the party can be reoriented along a more clear pro-Agreement sort of message, if you like, but there are others who are scratching their heads and don¹t believe that they live on the same planet as one of them put it to me. As those Trimbleites, they say that the problem goes much deeper than a couple of individuals, they¹re effectively saying the party hasn¹t got the message, that it should have done from the electorate looking forward to other elections and just wondering what on earth is going to happen. One party officer said, you know if you lose Lagan Valley this time, you might not get it back for a generation, and he just sort of wondered if they would ever close that gap which is opening up between them and the DUP.

WENDY AUSTIN

And indeed, and that gap is now substantial, isn¹t it, and were the Assembly to be back tomorrow, would it mean that they would lose a Minister as well?

 MARK DEVENPORT

They would indeed, I mean the arithmetic is that there would be 33 DUP members of the Assembly, and the Ulster Unionists will be down in the position, in effect being the third party, they¹d be on 24 which is the same as Sinn Fein, but they¹ve got fewer first preference votes, so they¹re down to the third party, and the line up for what it¹s worth, and obviously it¹s all a bit academic at the moment will be 4 DUP ministries in comparison to 2 of all the others.

WENDY AUSTIN

It¹s certainly changed times, isn¹t it, for the Ulster Unionists, and I mean there are those who are saying that this is it really, that they¹re never going to recover from this, what¹s your view?

MARK DEVENPORT

Well at the time of the election it looked to be clearer to say that on the nationalist side than it was on the unionist side, because that gap was closer, and because there¹s just always a sense that, you know, the Ulster Unionists have been a party that have been so far, for so long on top, that they would be able potentially to come back in a future election. I don¹t think you can completely write them off, but it is looking a little bit more like there may now be a sort of critical gap opening up, and certainly David Trimble after the last election was talking really about a second election, he believed that if he was given in effect a chance for a rematch, he could take the DUP on after the negotiations which would come in the next few months which he thinks will sort of play into his hands. But there¹s a real problem there, I think, for the Ulster Unionists, when they don¹t have vote catchers of the likes of Jeffrey Donaldson, how do you close the gap if you haven¹t got the candidates?

Programme GMU Date & Time: Dec. 22, 2003 8.28 Subject: UUP crisis

SEAMUS BOYD

Is he facing another challenge?

KEN MAGINNESS

I don¹t think so, one can never tell, but I don¹t think that David Trimble has ever really been faced with a serious challenge. He¹s got an ability that is hard to duplicate, he has taken us through very, very difficult times, where the better and more realistic aspects of Ulster Unionism have in fact been explored, we can¹t go on in a society that is 60/40 in terms of the 2 main traditions, pretending that somehow only an Ulster Unionist or a unionist wishlist can be realized, and that¹s the humbug of Jeffreyism, if I might say, that in fact we don¹t hear of any really substantive alternatives, we simply get an idea that there¹s a wishlist and that if you don¹t subscribe to the wishlist, then you¹re not a real unionist. I don¹t accept that.

SEAMUS BOYD

I take it you believe that the party will be stronger and healthier then that, now that Jeffrey Donaldson has left. But there¹s a fair rump behind that wouldn¹t be in much agreement or much common ground with David Trimble, there¹s the Martin Smyths, David Burnsides?

KEN MAGINNESS

I think that now that Jeffrey has gone, the catalyst for that descent is really weakened. I think there are other things that might usefully happen within the party. I think there are one or two senior positions that might well be changed, but Š

 SEAMUS BOYD

Are you hinting that you would like to see Martin Smyth not having office, not (unclear) position?

KEN MAGINNESS

Martin is a long-time servant of unionism. I believe that the extent to which he and I would disagree now and the extent to which in fact he has not been a Josias Cunningham type president probably leads to difficulties, and it might be useful if he stepped down as President. But that¹s a matter for the Executive and for the Ulster Unionist Council, and it¹s not something whereas I might express an opinion, it¹s not something where I believe that my view is the only view that counts, and that¹s really what democracy within the Ulster Unionist Party is about, and should be about.

SEAMUS BOYD

Of course Lord Maginness, this is all a bit academic, because you¹re not really that important anymore, it¹s the DUP that¹s in the driving seat.

KEN MAGINNESS

At the last Executive I was told that I was a has been, actually that¹s quite a compliment, because it means that at least I made a contribution in the past. The people who were making the accusation, I don¹t think ever were and therefore they can¹t aspire to be has beens, so I don¹t know, democracy is suchŠ.

SEAMUS BOYD

But it is true, isn¹t it, the Ulster Unionist Party is not in the driving seat.

KEN MAGINNESS

Sorry.

 SEAMUS BOYD

You¹re not in the driving seat, I mean even to take it a bit further, you¹re not in the premiership, you¹re battling for survival in the nation-wide league and the DUP are up there with the Manchester Uniteds of this world, you¹ve lost and you¹re not important anymore?

KEN MAGINNESS

Oh you mean as a party?

SEAMUS BOYD

Yes.

KEN MAGINNESS

No, I would as you might guess disagree with that, because Ulster Unionism is the party that has grappled with reality, and while as it may be difficult to bring people along, when there are other people saying, no there¹s a much easier way, we¹re not going to tell you what it is, but there¹s a great wishlist, and there¹s an easier way. The reality will be that now Paisleyism has got the ball, let¹s see how they run with it, let¹s see how we move in six months, in a year, if in fact they survive intact as long as that, and then perhaps we¹ll have once again a reversal of fortunes. I don¹t believe that a party that has for 40 years been in opposition, had to do nothing except criticise those who were actually attempting to do something, can overnight transform itself. So we will be in a fallow period for the next 6 months or more.

But I think at the end of the day the constructive politics of David Trimble and the bulk of Ulster Unionism will win through. Can I say something else? We¹ve been so concerned as a party with trying to play the big game against extreme odds, that I think we probably neglected some of the smaller things, but the important things that we should have done, and so I would like to see our party re-examining itself in terms of its work on the ground, its work at Councillor level, at a Council level, all those things that we¹ve, because we¹ve be inward looking, (unclear) last few years.