(This transcript is courtesy of the Northern Ireland Information Service)

Program TALKBACK
Date & Time 13.8.03 12.26
Subject CALM ON THE STREETS

DAVID DUNSEITH

It has been a very quiet summer. How did we get here? I have Frankie Gallagher on the line who speaks for the Ulster Political Research Group and Eoin O'Broin is with me in the studio, Sinn Féin councillor for North Belfast.

Eoin O'Broin it has been, I don't think, there's no, okay, we have the pipebombs this morning reported and we have got lots of complaints about increases in paramilitary activity, but talking specifically about on-street violence. That seems to have calmed down a bit and that just didn't happen by accident did it?

EOIN O'BROIN

No, and I think it's more than just this summer. I mean in reality, particularly in the likes of North and East Belfast, the two years preceding last September were probably some of the most violent in terms of interface violence we had seen for some time, and since September there has been a marked down turn in the level of violence. Sinn Féin views that as a result of a number of factors. First of all, we think that there are things happening within the UDA, the feud being one. 

But there are other things happening there as well that meant that the UDA's campaign that was particularly being run by North Belfast and South East Antrim Brigades has stopped from September. The feud is one, the Criminal Assets Recovery Bureau is another etc. I also think there has been a growing argument for dialogue. We've been putting forward this argument for quite some time. 

Obviously last night's meeting was a very positive development, and in North Belfast last year those areas where dialogue was taking place between political representatives on either side or between community representatives in interface violence was an issue we were able to resolve. 

It was in those interfaces where there was a refusal to talk or an unwillingness to talk that problems got out of hand, particularly where the UDA was involved. I have to say I think the establishment of the Protestant Interface Network earlier this year, which most nationalists and republicans regarded with a huge degree of scepticism, has in parts of the city had a very positive effect and I have to acknowledge that. 

I have been on interfaces where I have physically seen people involved in that interface network on the opposite side of an interface calming the situation down. I think what we need to do at this point is very clear. We need to build on what has been quite a summer in many years. We need to encourage more of the types of dialogue that we saw last night. We need the likes of the UPRG to engage directly in dialogue with elected representatives like ourselves.

DAVID DUNSEITH

It's still not happening.

EOIN O'BROIN

It's still not happening, and we need to have a situation where interface by interface people of influence in the political sphere and the community sphere and the religious sphere are sitting down talking and resolving the problems, and I think if we do that then we can build on this very positively. There are trouble spots still. There is a low level campaign of violence going on in Dunmurry and Lisburn. 

Our own councillor out there, Paul Butler, had a kind of a device of some description thrown at his house there last week. That's very worrying. We believe the UDA locally is behind that, but at the same time if people get their heads around the need to engage, particularly with those people they don't agree with and they don't trust, then I think we could build very positively.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Frankie Gallagher what's your handle on this? Why do you feel that things have calmed down a bit?

FRANKIE GALLAGHER

It's our analysis that there certainly, if we could stop the tit for tat street violence we would go a long way to finding out the causes behind the street violence in the first part. It's also our analysis that a great deal of the violence of this last four to five years is part of a political strategy to destabilise loyalism at the height of very important and key political moments. And now that we've done that, the advent of the Protestant Interface Network, the UPRG work on the ground. 

I can't agree with everything that the councillor has said, South East Antrim and North Belfast, we think the factors as well that have come is that there were people on the loyalist side manipulating the situation as well. If you go into other people's areas - pipebombs etc, not doing on their own doorstep, but going into other people's areas and causing this type of situation.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Yes, I know, members of the public who are listening will say they accept that on both sides, whatever side of the interface, there are obviously people who are going to cause trouble. I mean we can throw mud at each other til the cows come home as they say, but they know that there are people who are out for trouble, and if they'd been up the road they'd be out in the streets as well. What about this business of direct dialogue? We seem to have gone some way down that line but there's still this little gap. Can that be closed?

FRANKIE GALLAGHER

I think as long as there's a sustained period of calm and there's no violence on the street I think that barriers will come down. I think the future would look brighter the longer period of time that peace and stability prevails. What is difficult at the moment is that myself and many other people within my constituency have only recently received death threats supposed to be from the Provisional IRA. 

They have gathered intelligence etc on myself and many others. It's very difficult to sit down and enter into dialogue with someone who you know is gathering intelligence on you, to set you up for a future assassination. There's a lot of trust to build, there's a lot of dialogue to be done within our own communities because, let's be honest, if we get our own doorstep sorted out first and I think that's what's happened this year, it's not all down to UDA, there was republicans involved in the violence. 

The republican community seems to have got that under control. The loyalist community seems to have got their situation under control. We've all got different factors and that's the way forward.

 DAVID DUNSEITH

Yeah, what about this Eoin O'Broin from Frankie Gallagher who . I'm sorry is a bit reserved, he's not saying no to dialogue eventually but there are these threats hanging over him?

EOIN O'BROIN

Well let me say a couple of things. I mean Frankie and I are both elected representatives. We both have an electoral mandate and we both have a responsibility to go that extra mile to resolve the problems. I don't think it's acceptable for us in our positions of local leadership to say well let's wait until it calms down and then talk.

 I have had two UDA death threats communicated to me in the last 18 months by the PSNI. I will meet Frankie Gallagher after this radio show, (1) To try and deal with the issue of current UDA threats against Sinn Féin councillors, but more importantly to see how do we resolve precisely the types of problems which are negatively effecting our own communities. We are not going agree on the causes of these problems. We are not going to agree on the analysis but we have a political responsibility. There's no point talking to people who you agree with. 

We need to talk to precisely those people who we have most to fear from, and I would urge Frankie and those people within his sphere of influence who are in favour of dialogue to go that extra mile. Because if we're not going to talk, I mean if there's an interface, for example, let's take North Queen Street and Tigers Bay. 

One of the really frustrating things for those of us on the nationalist and republican side, who last year were trying to resolve the problem, is the UDA personnel in that area and the DUP personnel who are obviously the kind of main political reps, DUP people who will speak to us day in and day out, and city councillors that have all sorts of other issues, will not sit down with us privately and say let's sort this problem out. If political reps won't do that, the problems aren't going to get solved by itself and that's why we need to take that responsibility. 

DAVID DUNSEITH

What about this Frankie Gallagher on the invitation there from Eoin O'Broin. You're got to sort it out with people like Eoin O'Broin? There's no point in talking to somebody within your own group because you agree with them, they're no threat to you, as you would say, so you've got to get together on it? 

FRANKIE GALLAGHER

I agree that people within, from elected representatives especially have to take political risks and have to move forward and have to enter into dialogue, but we're at an impasse now which we are working on, where the nationalist community could make a gesture for example of recognising the Protestant culture, to be able to walk on their own streets, the same way that the Protestant community has recognised the civil rights and the rights of people in Londonderry when they wanted to walk on their own streets. 

I think I could go back to my constituency and find out is there threats to these people, is this true or is there some sort of mixing going on, and I think if that councillor goes back and does the same in his community well then we can move a large way forward and I'm doing that day and daily but you know it's very difficult when people say one thing and want to meet in private, yet those same people are there denying us our rights, our culture and our heritage, and won't even recognise this as a people.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Well, I'll just ask you a brief final question on that Eoin O'Broin. I mean it is, there are so many negative things that we cover from time to time in the programme. It's nice to have positive language as we've heard here today, but there's the question as Frankie Gallagher mentions there about parades and all that sort of thing. Can that be sorted out?

EOIN O'BROIN

Without question. Now let me say, I mean I've already said on this programme that I have physically seen the positive impact of the Protestant Interface Network in parts of North Belfast and there's many of my constituents who won't be happy with me saying that, but I think we need to acknowledge it. 

The reality is and again Frankie's kind of saying let's have a gesture before we solve the problem. The marching issue needs to be resolved. The lesson of the Apprentice Boys.

DAVID DUNSEITH

This is a good time to start now before next .

EOIN O'BROIN

Absolutely but the lesson of the Apprentice Boys and the Bogside Residents in Derry is that if you begin with dialogue, private and then public, you'll be able to resolve the issue, and they have resolved that substantially. Sinn Féin has been arguing for a long time and encouraging residents to do the same, to approach loyal institutions, to have dialogue and resolve those problems, and if there are solutions we won't be found wanting. But it's unreasonable for anybody to say let's have this before we talk. 

Talking is the beginning of the process to solve these problems and I would encourage Frankie and anybody else to do what is required to encourage community workers or political representatives, privately or publicly, to get into dialogue so we can solve all these problems. If people refuse to talk they are preventing the solutions from being developed.