Morning Digest

The following information is courtesy of the Northern Ireland Information Service.

The local papers cover the major arms find in south Belfast which is being linked to the mainstream IRA

Weapons find

Police believe that a major haul of weapons uncovered in south Belfast at the weekend belonged to the mainstream IRA. Daily Express P15, Daily Mail P19, Daily Mirror P24, The Times P13.. Ulster Unionist Jeffrey Donaldson said the weapons discovery could not be ignored. News Letter P8.The arms proved that the government's demilitarisation plans were 'scandalously premature' according to the DUP's Nigel Dodds. Irish Times P5.

Three men have been arrested following the haul of guns, ammunition and bomb timers which were ready to use according to police. Irish News P3, Irish Independent P17

Decommissioning is ever more vital - editorial Irish News P6.

Program: GMU
Date and time March 24, 2003, 8:28 a.m.
Subject Arms find

WENDY AUSTIN

What will be the political impact of the weekend arms find in the Lower Ormeau area of Belfast? We're back home now, as you can tell. The police say the weapons, handguns, an assault rifle, ammunition and timers were under the control of the Provisional IRA. Ulster Unionist MP, Jeffrey Donaldson joins us.

So what do you think of this arms find in the Ormeau area?

JEFFREY DONALDSON

Clearly this was a forward, what the IRA call a forward arms cache. This was not weaponry that was held in their bunkers. And it begs the question, when taken together with the intelligence gathering and targeting having been carried out by the Belfast Brigade of the IRA, what their intentions were with regard to the use of this weaponry. I think this poses yet another issue for the political process in terms of the IRA's commitment to exclusively peaceful means.

WENDY AUSTIN

Nigel Dodds has said that the demilitarisation plans put forward by the British Government in the last meetings at Hillsborough are scandalously premature while the Provisional IRA clearly remains active, in his words. Would you agree with him?

JEFFREY DONALDSON

Well I think that's absolutely right when you take this latest find, together with the IRA's involvement in the incident in Cullaville in South Armagh in which one of its own member

When you factor into that their cousins in the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA, threatening a bomb a week, then I think demilitarisation, so-called, is indeed premature, that it is I think for political expediency and not for security considerations that the Government are pressing for massive troop withdrawals and the dismantling of army watch towers and security force bases.

WENDY AUSTIN

But while you are saying that Sinn Fein is unfit for Government, the political process continues. Brian Cowan is meeting Gerry Adams in Dublin today, and there's a lot of talk that later on this week those amendments to the Policing Bill, which would allow ex-prisoners to sit on Northern Ireland District Police Partnership Boards, that those will be put forward by the Government.

JEFFREY DONALDSON

Well, Wendy, that wouldn't surprise me, and yet the Government said that these amendments would not come forward unless there were acts of completion. Well unless I've missed something, I haven't been aware of any act of completion by the IRA, and we will be strongly opposing these measures that the Government are putting forward to allow convicted terrorists to sit as independent members on District Policing Partnerships. I can't believe that the ordinary decent law-abiding people of Northern Ireland want that kind of individual having a major say in local policing. It's just not on.

Program TALKBACK (DAVID TRIMBLE)
Date & Time: March 24, 2003
Subject ARMS FIND
 

DAVID DUNSEITH

The haul included six handguns, an assault rifle, timer power units and a very large quantity of ammunition. Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble gave his reaction.

DAVID TRIMBLE

What has struck me about the weapons is the presence of timer power units which would indicate connection with explosives, the presence of a number of modern short weapons pistols which again is consistent with the current activity of republicans, namely of using force to maintain control of certain of the, what they regard as their own areas and using force to dominate the rackets that they are engaged upon and these elements, the power timer units and weapons appeared to the ready for use. They also appeared to be pristine new and in good condition.

Now some questions arise from this which we have to address to the police, to the Chief Constable in particular and I would like to hear from him precisely what are these weapons? Can he identify for us the type of weapon involved? Will he please identify for us the country of origin and the date of manufacture? 

All of these things should be available to him from simple examination of the pistols. He must have this information as of now and I would consequently ask him to put that information into the public domain. Precisely what are they, where have they come from, when were they manufactured? 

These are key questions that we have to deal with. Also there have been arrests and obviously we are keenly interested to know whether charges will follow and who are the persons who have been arrested, because if we find, as I suspect we will, that there are major players in the mainstream IRA amongst those arrested this obviously has huge significance and leads to a further set of questions which we have to address to Messrs Adams and McGuinness. 

And the questions are simple, what is going on? What are you up to? You tell us that you want to pursue peace, politics, so why is this happening? So what is going on, who is in charge, are you really preparing the ground for the acts of completion that we talked about at Hillsborough and if not what is the game? 

Those are questions that have to be addressed to those gentlemen, and I will pursue them personally as and when I can, but for the moment we are putting them there out in the airwaves for them and there are questions also too for the Chief Constable. We want to get answers quickly on these matters.

Program: Talkback
Date & Time: March 24, 2003, 12.56 p.m.
Subject Mark Devenport - Arms Find and DPPs

DAVID DUNSEITH

First, Mark, comment on the significance of this find and what we've just heard from David Trimble?

MARK DEVENPORT

Well obviously Mr.. Trimble wants to make something of it. I suppose it's no secret to anyone that the Provisional IRA has got arms dumps around the place, otherwise decommissioning and the continuing calls for complete disarmament wouldn't be the issue that they are. 

I suppose the Ulster Unionist leader is saying, does this arms find betoken some kind of activity which is going on, which of course, if it was then linked to activity, and obviously police investigations are still underway, then that would be serious. 

Interestingly down in Dublin where the Irish Foreign Minister Brian Cowan and Paul Murphy are having discussions, they were asked about this, both expressing concern but trying to some extent to sideline, saying they weren't aware of all the details, they're working on acts of completion, this is what it's all about, but obviously not wanting to get drawn too much into the details of this which could come at a potentially embarrassing time.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Embarrassing time being the possibility, or is it the probability of former members of the Provisional IRA perhaps sitting on the Police Partnership Boards?

MARK DEVENPORT

Well really, they're trying to put together this deal, and we have known that one element in this package has been that they could change the rules that now apply to District Policing Partnership Boards. Which as things stand at the moment don't allow former prisoners with serious convictions to sit on this Boards, they can if they're councillors, but if they're independent members they can't, that was out of the question. 

Now earlier this year the Government came up with some draft clauses which would change that, allowing say in West Belfast a former republican prisoner to sit on one of these Boards and to have a role monitoring the police. 

They said, okay we'll do this, but only in the context of acts of completion, and we have thought that the whole timetable was looking to around this time in March when we thought we might have a deal, we might have acts of completion, and the Government would then put this into the Policing Bill, but of course that's all been derailed because they've put off the elections by a month, we still haven't got anything that anyone could describe as acts of completion, but the Westminster clock is ticking as ever it was, and they're going to hit

So they've come up if you like with a slightly clever sticking plaster approach which is that on Wednesday they will indeed insert these clauses, but knowing that there will be a furore from unionists, saying, hang on, the IRA haven't engaged in acts of completion, they're going to make the actual application of these clauses, and coming into effect dependent on what is called a Commencement Order, which is a separate law which will be passed through Parliament at a later stage when they think they've got what they need.

Program: UTV LIVE
Date & Time: March 23, 2003 1800
Subject ARMS FIND

SUSAN MILLAR
 

The find of a rifle, handguns, assorted ammunition and timer units is being viewed as highly significant. The contents of the cache appeared to be new and security sources are saying they've been bought in Eastern Europe. Two men, aged 42 and 33, will appear in court in the morning. Another man has been released without charge. The guns were found in a warehouse in an alleyway running University Street and Essex Street. The police say the haul belongs to the IRA prompting the Ulster Unionists to ask the Chief Constable to clarify the position. 

DAVID TRIMBLE

And these elements, part, timer units and the weapons appear to be ready for use. They also appeared to be pristine, new and in good condition. Now some questions arise from this which we have to address to the police, to the Chief Constable in particular and I would like to hear from him precisely what are these weapons? Can he identify for us the type of weapon involved? Would he please identify for us the country of origin and the date of manufacture? 

SUSAN MILLAR

In Dublin Gerry Adams was playing down the significance of the cache.

GERRY ADAMS

First of all I don't know if this is an IRA arms dump. There obviously are arms dumps out there, but the arms aren't being used I think is a significant factor. I don't think we should get into a tizzy over this. 

SUSAN MILLAR

Mr.. Adams was meeting Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowan and said the issue had not even come up. However here the DUP is saying it's evident that the IRA has no intention of decommissioning. 

NIGEL DODDS, DUP

Those of us who told us that decommissioning was proceeding and we should have faith in General de Chastelain's commission, have now been shown to be foolish. What we're seeing is clearly brand new weaponry, it clearly has been imported. The police are saying that lives have been saved so clearly it was ready for use and there are serious question marks over the Government and those parties who have been gullable enough to take the word of the IRA, when all the evidence of this and other incidents demonstrates that they simply cannot be trusted. 

SUSAN MILLAR

The SDLP is also calling for answers from Sinn Fein. 

Carmel Hanna, SDLP

If it was the IRA, on ceasefire for a long time and I hope on the brink of an end of all, the use of all weapons, what are they doing there? I mean Brian Cowen has asked the same question today. He said we urgently need acts of completion. 

Program: BBC Newsline
Date and time: March 24, 2003
Subject Arms find

MARK CARRUTHERS

The Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble says Sinn Fein has questions to answer after the police linked a large arms find to the Provisional IRA. Three men are still being questioned about the discovery of guns, bullets and bomb making equipment at Essex Street in the Ormeau area of South Belfast.

GARETH GORDON

Six handguns, a rifle, five timer units and a large amount of ammunition uncovered in Essex Street off the Lower Ormeau Road and linked, say the police, not to dissidents, but to the Provisional IRA, and that could have consequences for the political process. The Ulster Unionist leader says there are questions for the Sinn Fein leadership.

DAVID TRIMBLE

What is going on? What are you up to? You tell us that you want to pursue peace, politics, so why is this happening? Why are members of mainstream IRA, prominent members of mainstream IRA, engaged in preparation for violence because clearly that is what this is.

GARETH GORDON

Gerry Adams in Dublin today for meetings with the Irish Government said he'd be happy to address Mr. Trimble's concerns.

GERRY ADAMS

I have been in touch with Mr. Trimble. I will be meeting him in the next short while. If there's any questions he wants to put to me, clearly he can do it privately. And we shouldn't be band standing on this issue, or any other issue for that matter.

GARETH GORDON

But the Secretary of State, who was also in Dublin, is aware of the potential problems this could cause.

SECRETARY OF STATE

I must have a look at the detail when I return to Belfast later today. But clearly it is something we have to be concerned about, that it is in the context of acts of completion. That's what it's all about.

GARETH GORDON

The Chief Constable has been urged by unionists to say more about the type of weapons seized, their country of origin, and when they were made. Three men are still being questioned.
 

Program: TODAY PROGRAMME (PAT KENNY/SECRETARY OF STATE)
Date & Time: March 24, 2003
Subject: NORTHERN IRELAND

PAT KENNY

While the war in Iraq is naturally dominating world headlines the situation in Northern Ireland is at an important stage of development. Assembly elections are due for 29th May and in the meantime the Irish and British Governments have committed themselves to publishing a document which will set out their plans for a peaceful and permanent solution to the conflict in Northern Ireland. But can the political parties in Northern Ireland ever really put the past behind them and work towards the bright future which the Good Friday Agreement spelled out nearly 5 years ago? Paul Murphy is the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and he joins me in the studio now, you are very welcome to the programme. Now you came here in somewhat unusual circumstances but in a way you knew what you were getting into, also isn't that so?

SECRETARY OF STATE

It is and, as you say, I came as a result of a cabinet reshuffle and we never know what is ahead of us in terms of political events always, but I have been here from '97 to '99 as Minister of State for Political Development, the talks Minister if you like. And I have been deputy to Mo Mowlam, too, in opposition. So I have been involved on and off with Northern Ireland and Irish politics from 1994. What struck me, coming back after the three years gap when I was Secretary of State for Wales, was the enormous change that has come about since I had left.

PAT KENNY

What sort of things struck you?

SECRETARY OF STATE

First of all the fact that devolution had clearly worked, that people liked the idea of being governed by people from Northern Ireland and the great tragedy was of course that when I arrived the Assembly was suspended for all sorts of reasons. But the other one that struck me and a very visible one was the changes in police. 

When I left it was the RUC, now it is the PSNI. A new uniform, a new badge, a new Chief Constable, a new Policing Board with Catholics on it and a police force with Catholics joining it. So that was a huge development in the three years since I had left. Northern Ireland became a better place in which to live and work over those years.

PAT KENNY

You were previously Secretary of State for Wales and you loved that and suddenly you are back into Northern Ireland again. You thought you had been there, done that.

SECRETARY OF STATE

Yes, well I did enjoy my time as Secretary of State for Wales, very much so. I wish our rugby was just a little bit better. A great game by the way on Saturday.

PAT KENNY

Fantastic game, absolutely. We will be talking about that with (unclear) later on the program. I mean a heart-stopping game.

SECRETARY OF STATE

It was. I was there in the stadium. And people ask me what are you going to do there as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, that was Secretary for Wales, from Wales, with a name like Murphy. I said well I am hoping that Wales will win, but just by one point, but it was the other way round of course. 

And I remember my grandfather, whose father was from Ballincollig in Cork, he used to have two rosettes, one on each lapel, an Irish one and a Welsh one, but behind it and it would come half time he would take the one out which was winning. 

So it was a great job in Wales, to see in the beginning of devolution with our new Assembly there, a new beginning, new era really for Wales and it was great to be associated with that. But it's also great to be back in a very challenging role in Northern Ireland.

PAT KENNY

But particularly challenging because of what had happened to the Assembly and the background against which had happened, with raids on the Sinn Fein offices in Stormont and so on and the Colombia three and the customary stand off between the Ulster Unionist Party and Sinn Fein and all the rest of it. 

And that is the background against which this document has got to be produced by the two Governments. Before going into that and what it might contain, I mean very difficult for Tony Blair to be expected to keep his eye on the Northern Ireland ball while all of this is going on in Iraq.

SECRETARY OF STATE

It is difficult but at the same time it is happening. What struck me and every observer I think two or three weeks ago when the two Prime Ministers came to Hillsborough originally intended for the Monday, but because we didn't conclude the business we went over the Tuesday. We had 31 hours I think it was of talks in which the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister were deeply involved in at the same time as everything that was happening on the international stage. 

And I think it is very largely because of the personal commitment of those two men which meant that those Hillsborough talks went well, but it has also meant I think that ever since 1997 the talks have been right at the heart, not just of Irish politics, but of British politics too. And the personal relationship between Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair is very good, but I think the commitment of the two Prime Ministers is overwhelming.

PAT KENNY

I mean there has been a comparison made that Tony Blair is something of a zealot when it comes to Northern Ireland. He wants to deliver lasting peace in Northern Ireland and you know it has been said that the same look comes into his face when he is talking about Northern Ireland as does when he comes to talk about Iraq, that he believes passionately in the rightness of his cause.

SECRETARY OF STATE

Yes and the two enormous issues to the future. I mean in terms of Northern Ireland we want to see a lasting peace, stability, prosperity to the people of Northern Ireland and I think we are getting there and on the world stage, of course, what is happening in Iraq is about delivering a lasting peace for the world too so that we will be free of rogue states which may or may not in the future be associated with international terrorism.

PAT KENNY

I've got the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the reason Tony Blair gave so much time at the Hillsborough talks was that he hoped it would be done and dusted by putting in the extra hours, even though there were other very pressing demands on his time. Ok, give it a few more hours and we can do this and the question is have the two Governments done it?

SECRETARY OF STATE

Well, I think we have so far as we can go in the sense that what we discussed over 2 days, first of all implementing all aspects of the Good Friday Agreement, so we're talking about human rights, criminal justice, policing, those sort of issues, Irish language. At the same time we touched on issues such as on the runs, such as demilitarisation, such as changes to the Policing Bill, which were in fact linked and connected with, as they termed it, an act of completion on the part of the IRA. 

So the picture is only complete, of course, when we look at all those aspects. The IRA has to cease activity. The parties and the Governments have to ensure that we implement the Good Friday Agreement. There are other issues too. But I think in terms of the document that will be published in some weeks' time when the two Prime Ministers return in April to Hillsborough, is as it were delivering the Governments' side of this equation of acts of completion, and by agreement with the pro-Agreement parties. 

At the same time, of course, we have to see acts of completion on the part of the IRA too.

PAT KENNY

And yet within the last 24 hours we see an arms find in Northern Ireland which is being attributed to the Provisional IRA. They said these are, according to the PSNI, these are Provisional arms.

SECRETARY OF STATE

Obviously I'll have to look at the reports of all that, and I've the press reports, and I'll be looking later on at the police reports. But essentially that's what in a way all this is about. It's about ensuring that we do get decommissioning of arms.

It is about inactivity on the part of the Irish Republican Army, and that's exactly what we're talking about. And the more we move towards that, the greater the chance of stability in this process.

PAT KENNY

Just to clarify things, I mean if the IRA make some arrangements to get rid of their arms, and it's organised properly and so on, and if you like under the legal framework that is there, that's fair enough, and people involved in that process will be free of any prosecution. But what about finds like this one. 

I won't ask you to comment directly on this particular one, but where people have been found in possession of, or responsible for weaponry, I mean the Good Friday Agreement won't apply to them, I presume, they'll go to jail.

SECRETARY OF STATE

I mean the weapons, one assumes, are illegally held. And if weapons are illegally held, then the law has to come into force, and that's the end of it. But in terms of where we go in the weeks ahead, the general business of decommissioning is very much part of that.

PAT KENNY

Does General de Chastelain still have a role to play in all of this, or have the latest talks bypassed him effectively?

SECRETARY OF STATE

No he and his commission have a hugely important role to play. It's an independent commission, it's an international commission. John de Chastelain was deeply involved in the talks from the word go, and of course, there have been some acts of decommissioning over the last number of years, but we want more.

PAT KENNY

The document which will be produced, I mean one of the sticking points was to do with monitoring, and what sanctions there would be on those people who were found to be in breach. What is your thinking on the monitoring arrangement at the moment?

SECRETARY OF STATE

Well, I think it is important for the world to know if we go into this new era, as it were, post April, that if there is activity, inactivity I beg your pardon, on the part of the IRA, that has to be overseen by a monitoring committee. And that monitoring committee, whatever we're going to call it, will be composed of people from Ireland, from the United States, from the United Kingdom, and from Northern Ireland. 

So there is an international dimension to that, so it's seen to be generally independent, but it will be able to point out to the Governments if they see a breach of the Agreement that we go into. I think that's very important too.

PAT KENNY

Well, what sanctions then? I mean if, for example, there's a punishment beating by a loyalist group or a republican group, is that a breach?

SECRETARY OF STATE

Yes, in the sense that anything which the independent committee would point out to Governments, which they believe is a breach, would have to be acted upon by the Governments. And what we are going to do, and I can't go into details yet, but the sanctions idea, the principle of sanctions is already in the Agreement anyway. 

We touched on that on more than one occasion during the lead up to the Agreement, it was part of the Agreement, and then in the legislation which followed, it was part of that as well. But my hope, of course, is that none of those things will apply, because if you are in this new era, then in a way that's all ŠŠ..

PAT KENNY

It could be irrelevant, but it's there, it's a belt and braces kind of thing. But what the Ulster Unionist Party want, of course, is the expulsion of Sinn Fein from the Assembly if the IRA are found to be in breach. Sinn Fein will say, look we have our electoral mandate anyway.

It's nothing to do with the IRA. We have used our best offices, as they promised under the Good Friday Agreement to persuade the IRA, but that's as far as it goes. You cannot sanction us for breaches by the IRA. We are after all 2 different organisations. I mean that is their mantra.

SECRETARY OF STATE

It is, except they understood during the course of the talks that they have to be in agreement right across the board about the Mitchell principles, that the principles of democracy and non-violence that really lies at the heart of the Good Friday Agreement. And at the end of the day this also would apply, of course, in terms of sanctions to the political non-compliance with the Agreement too, whether in fact the Institutions are being used properly across the board. 

But I think too, if we look at it in the way that we can try and ensure that there's a trust between the parties, because that's what we've got to rebuild, and that there are guarantees to both sides, to unionists and to nationalists, we can rebuild the trust and the confidence which led to the Agreement in the first place, and which I think is essential for its continuance. So it's all about trust really.

PAT KENNY

It may well be, but practically speaking, the association between the only party in the Executive, ie Sinn Fein with paramilitaries, the others don't have that problem. The Ulster Unionist Party does not have a paramilitary wing. The DUP does not have a military wing. The SDLP does not have a paramilitary wing, so if there are sanctions to be applied for the activities of paramilitaries, it will only apply, that clause can only apply to Sinn Fein.
 

SECRETARY OF STATE

It applies to Sinn Fein in the sense that there has to be reference to the activity of the IRA or its inactivity. Of course it does that and that lies at the core of the two, of the reason why it is that the Assembly was suspended in the first place.

 It was suspended because there was a lack of trust in the sense that here still was an army associated in the republican movement with a political party. Now I think that's going to change as the months and years go ahead, but there has to be a guarantee to the other side, as it were, that that isn't going to happen any more in the same way there has to be a guarantee on the stability of the institutions too so that nationalism, for example, can say right, the Assembly isn't going to be closed down one month and up again the other. 

There has to be an assurance that the different institutions, if you like, of the Good Friday Agreement are properly used, the North-South Bodies, the inclusion of the ExecutiveŠ.

PAT KENNY

But are you saying though that the British Government would abandon its ability to suspend the Assembly and the Executive?

SECRETARY OF STATE

Well, certainly that's one thing that we are looking at, at the moment, but obviously I can't go into the details until the documents are published, but that has been something which the party has been very interested in.

PAT KENNY

But there's a (unclear) here and that is that the parties have to get themselves out of their own mess rather than be bailed out by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when things reach crisis point?

SECRETARY OF STATE

And I think there's a great deal of merit in what you said, is that at the end of the day the Good Friday Agreement came about not because the two Governments wanted, although we did, it is because the parties created it which they did and they had an ownership in that Agreement in the same way that parties all the time have to come together to try and ensure that the Agreement goes on. Now that's not easy.

PAT KENNEY

What's your thinking on the 'on the runs' as they're called. I mean, there was talk of an amnesty but nobody in fact was looking for an amnesty for the 'on the runs' but they want closure for some of these people who are on the run, what's your thinking?

SECRETARY OF STATE

Well, two things really, one is that it has to be linked into acts of completion on the part of the IRA, it could not be done unless we have the sort of assurances on these acts of completion, the cessation of activity on the part of the IRA. And the second one, is that it will be associated more with the judicial process rather than an amnesty and that's the area we're now looking at, how that actually works, thatŠ.

PAT KENNY

So there might be, for example, to spell it out, there might be sentences passed for crimes committed or sentences reiterated for those who escaped, for example, from jail but they would be serving their sentence at liberty but under licence, is that the kind of thing?

SECRETARY OF STATE

It's the type of thing we're looking at. That's the thrust of the area you quite rightly defined that, we will go into details when we see the document when it's published. That in terms of use in a judicial process as opposed to a general amnesty which I think is much more comfortable across the board for people to understand and accept, that's the area we're going down.
 
PAT KENNY

But will there be a general treatment of all these people or will there be a list? I mean are there some crimes so heinous that they cannot be given the benefit of this or does the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement, which forgave a lot of sins, apply?

SECRETARY OF STATE

It's about dealing with people individually, but remember that the people who were let out of prison as a result of the Good Friday Agreement, under the terms of the Agreement itself and the legislation which followed, and they were people who done pretty awful things and there were people who had done not so awful things, but nevertheless they had to be treated individually.

PAT KENNY

So that's the way it will work. I mean, it's not that everybody on the run will be treated in the same way?

SECRETARY OF STATE

No, they'll be treated individually in a judicial process.

PAT KENNY

In a judicial process?

SECRETARY OF STATE

Yes.

PAT KENNY

Policing, what changes do you envisage?
 
SECRETARY OF STATE

In terms of the Bill that's currently going through the House of Commons, it's gone through the House of Lords now, there is one I suppose which, area where would be linked into an act of completion and that, as I say, the creation of sub-groups in Belfast for District Policing Partnerships and on the District Policing Partnerships people would be allowed who had been in prison before. Now at the moment, of course, they're allowed anyway if they are councillors, if they've served five years out from prison, but these two clauses, which we published some months ago, would again be linked to the act of completion on the part of the IRA. 

PAT KENNY

So they won't happen unless there is an act of completion?

SECRETARY OF STATE

Yes.

PAT KENNY

But to explain about these District Partnerships, I mean, are you suggesting, because I haven't seen the fine print of this, that you could have people who, once upon a time terrorised a neighbourhood as terrorists, actually policing the neighbourhood or will they be in the administration of a force?

SECRETARY OF STATE

No, these are more advisory committees which deal with policing on a local basis. It wouldn't be operational in that sense, but it would be advisory committees dealing with issues regarding the police. But of course at the moment, under the law, if they were councillors and had been in prison before for these different offences and there'd been a gap of five years and they'd taken an oath of non violence, then they can still come on now. 

We'd refer them to the independent members of it, but in a sense it isn't the technical differences between councillors and independent members, it's more a symbolic thing in a sense that has exercised people in Northern Ireland.

PAT KENNY

But you'd want to be careful that you didn't give power over policing to people who still had the effect or the ability to terrify their own neighbourhood?

SECRETARY OF STATE

No, and the operational activity of policing is very much a matter for the Chief Constable and the senior police officers.

PAT KENNY

The demilitarisation of Northern Ireland, I mean this is not going to happen overnight, this is a process?

SECRETARY OF STATE

It's a process, but it's a process which can happen more quickly if there is an act of completion on the part of the IRA. Remember that a number of towers have already come down and a number of thousands of troops have already gone home over the last number of years. So there has been a process of demilitarisation, or normalisation as the Good Friday Agreement calls it, anyway but that pace could be quickened in the event of the Agreement coming about in the next few weeks.

PAT KENNY

And yet we've had some fairly minor explosions perpetrated by dissident republicans, so, I mean, the threat is not gone?

SECRETARY OF STATE

No, and that's why today, for example, I've been with Michael McDowell, the Minister of Justice, to talk about various issues of co-operation between the Irish Government and the British Government, particularly in dealing with dissident republicans who of course don't recognise the border in that sense and can go back and fore the border and we need to ensure that we have the best possible co-operation between the two police forces and also to try and ensure that our legislation is more or less the same so there's no safe haven for these people anywhere on the island of Ireland.

PAT KENNY

Now, Governments can put legal frameworks in place and they can do the kind of things that you're promising to do on demilitarisation and so on, conditional on acts of completion. But when you look at the rioting that happens, even yet, when we look at the marching season which is coming up, you know, you can't make people like each other?

SECRETARY OF STATE

No, and no one's suggesting they go on holiday with each other, although some do, and the remarkable thing about this process is that parties have come together in devolution who have been opposed, bitterly opposed over the past 30 years but have actually governed Northern Ireland as Ministers in this Executive in a very special way and I do see a change, in the years that I've been involved in Northern Ireland, in people accepting the fact that this Agreement is here to stay, that we can only go forward, that we have to put 30 years really behind us and work together.

PAT KENNY

But then the difficulty is for ordinary people, I mean for the people you talk about they have the perks of office and there are perks to being involved in the running of your country. For those who, ideologically, propelled this whole thing, on one side or another, over the past 30 years, but who are not enjoying the perks of office. I mean life has got to change for them?

SECRETARY OF STATE

Of course it is and it particularly has to change, I think,
 

PAT KENNY

I mean life has got to change for them. 

SECRETARY OF STATE

Of course it has and it particularly has to change I think in the more deprived communities in Northern Ireland, in working class areas whether they be republican or loyalist or none and one of the things that we've looked at in the last couple of weeks is ways in which we can look at the economic and social issues which provide more employment, you know we looked in terms of education, that we looked in terms of urban infrastructure, that we make places better places to live in because they can be breeding grounds of paramilitarism if in fact the standard of life hasn't gone up and that the Good Friday Agreement has passed them by. 

So we are looking specifically at those areas but I get a feeling when I talk to people who are not politicians in Northern Ireland from all walks of life that they have seen an improvement in their lives over the last five years which has really been hugely different from what they'd experienced in the previous 20 or 30 years. 

PAT KENNY

The difficulty though is that the ghettos in many areas remain intact but there are still interfaces. In middle class and well to do communities, religion ceases to matter as much as it did, but in working class areas, in workless areas the concentration of the population are remaining sectarian, isn't that so, and that's the difficulty. 

SECRETARY OF STATE

It's a difficulty in terms that it's linked also with the economic and social issues I've just described. If you go to West Belfast for example or the Shankill where I think that unemployment in some parts of the Shankill is 60%. Now that's a huge unemployment rate and so what we've go to try to do is ensure that people in those areas together with the local authorities and the other agencies move together to ensure that there is a prospect of a better life with employment and so on and that will make a difference I think to those Š

PAT KENNY

Because the devil finds work for idle hands.
 

SECRETARY OF STATE, PAUL MURPHY

Absolutely. 

PAT KENNY

You are optimistic obviously, you bring with you an abuliance to this job and what I detect is an incredible optimism, do you think it will work this time?

SECRETARY OF STATE

I sincerely hope it will and all the experience I've had over the years I've been dealing with Northern Ireland is that yes there are huge difficulties to overcome, but there is a general will amongst all the political parties and amongst the people in Northern Ireland whether they be Catholic or Protestant or none that they want to go forward. 

We had difficult times leading up to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement when it was signed at Easter, but at the same time I never once thought we weren't going to do it because I just felt that in my bones or my instinct that people wanted to move forward not underestimating for one second the political difficulties that face us and I just think the will is there. 

PAT KENNY

Would it despair you if the DUP was to emerge as the largest unionist party after the Assembly elections and the Sinn Fein to emerge as the largest nationalist party after the elections? 

SECRETARY OF STATE

Well it's not for me to be dismayed or otherwise by what the political progress you know, throws up after the end of elections and we have to work with whichever party happens to be largest in Northern Ireland and if, take the DUP for example, it's been a party which is, of course, anti- Agreement but is very much in favour of devolution.

I think that, you know, there's a possibiltiy whichever parties are elected after May 29th that we've got still to go forward. There is no appetite for devolution disappearing in Northern Ireland no matter what side of the fence you are regarding agreement but we'll just have to wait and see of course.

PAT KENNY

Is it sometimes better to have the harder lines in Government than, and controlling Government or otherwise? 

SECRETARY OF STATE

In a way you see they've all been in Government. It may be that if the DUP and Sinn Fein are the larger of the two parties nationalists and unionists, nevertheless in the last number of years we've had the DUP, we've had Sinn Fein, we had the SDLP and the UUP all having ministers who govern Northern Ireland so that there's nothing unusual. 

PAT KENNY

To fast forward to the post election scenario, if that was the case, Peter Robinson as First Minister and Martin McGuinness as the Deputy First Minister. 

SECRETARY OF STATE

Well an interesting prospect that if you think in terms of where we were five or six years ago and the idea of Martin McGuinness being Minister of Education or the DUP being ministers of what they have been because they've changed over the last number of years that was unthinkable too but it happened. 

PAT KENNY

I know you're heading off to Kilkenny for the conference there today but before I let you go because I know you're anxious to hit the road, Iraq and first of all on a personal note the effect on Tony Blair. You're a good personal friend of his. He looks pretty stressed out by this.

SECRETARY OF STATE

I'm sure that he's very tired because of what happened. The amazing thing about the Prime Minister is that no matter what the stresses are he bounces back very quickly from being tired. I'll just recall, for example, when we were in Hillsborough, we were there until Ash Wednesday until 1.00 o'clock in the morning. 

Then he had to fly back and the following day when I was a bit exhausted I must say I turned the television on and saw him preforming on Prime Minister's Questions and he was as effective as he always was. He's a very resilient man. 

PAT KENNY

The effect of the back bench revolt, the most significant revolt that Britain has seen. 

SECRETARY OF STATE

We can understand people's views. It's not an easy decision to have to make for any of us in order to go through a divisional lobby and to go into possible military conflict which we are now in but at the end of the day two-thirds of the Paramilitary Labour Party voted in favour of what the Government was doing and that's a pretty substantial mandate from us too but I can understand what my colleagues felt, it wasn't my view, but I think that now in Britain we are seeing that public opinion is changing too, opinion polls this morning indicated that between 56 and 60% of British people think that we are doing the right thing. 

PAT KENNY

And your own reaction to the news from the war front. We've discussed already on the program, but the casualties always unacceptable to lose British or American lives in a war but I would put it to you and it may sound callous that you'd have lost many more people in road accidents in Britain over the past weekend.

SECRETARY OF STATE, PAUL MURPHY

Well that's probably true, except of course, you've got human sympathy with the families of those who have died in Iraq, and it is a huge personal tragedy for those families, you never underestimate that. Definitely on a general picture, we have to keep on going to ensure that we do what we think is the right thing.

PAT KENNY

So the news from the front is pretty much as expected. 

SECRETARY OF STATE, PAUL MURPHY

As far as I know, I'm no military expert, but in terms of moving towards Baghdad and in terms of securing the oilfields and things that have done in Southern Iraq, yes I think as far as I know we are doing pretty well, but obviously we've got to wait and see what happens. 

PAT KENNY

Paul Murphy, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, you're going to Ivy House I believe, not Kilkenny as I had thought but so far a journey therefore you'll be there in good time. Thank you very much for joining us in the studio this morning.

March 24, 2003
ARMS FIND RAISES QUESTIONS FOR REPUBLICANS SAYS TRIMBLE

The leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, David Trimble MP, MLA has asked a series of questions of the Republican leadership following the discovery of arms and ammunition in South Belfast.

Addressing a news conference at UUP Party Headquarters, Mr Trimble said: "This is potentially extremely important. What has struck me about the weapons is the presence of timer units which would indicate a connection with explosives. Also, the presence of pistols which again is consistent with the current activity of Republicans of using force to maintain and control what they regard as their own areas and using force to dominate the rackets that they engage in. 

"These arms and weapons appear to be ready for use. They also appear to be pristine, new and in good condition. Now some questions arise from this, which we have to address to the police. 
 

"I would like to hear from the Chief Constable in particular what precisely are these weapons? Would he please identify for us the type of weapons involved? Would he identify for us the country of origin, and the date of manufacture? All of these things should be available to him on simple examination of the pistols. He must have this information as of now, and I would consequently ask him to put that information into the public domain. These are key questions.

"Also, there have been arrests and obviously we are keenly interested to know whether charges will follow and who are the persons who have been arrested. If we find, as I suspect, that there are major players in the mainstream IRA amongst those arrested, this obviously has huge significance and leads to a further set of questions which we have to address to messrs Adams and McGuinness.

"The questions are simple. What is going on? What are you up to? You tell us that you want to pursue peace, politics, so why is this happening? Why are members of the mainstream IRA engaged in preparation for violence? Who is in charge? Are you really preparing the ground for the acts of completion that we talked about at Hillsborough? And if not, what is the game?

"These are questions that have to be addressed."