Plastic Bullets Make the News

These transcripts are courtesy of the Northern Ireland Information Service.

Plastic bullets could be phased by the end of the year, Irish News P3, Newsletter P5. 

Program: GMU
Date & Time 7:56 a.m., April 4, 2003 Subject Alex Attwood, SDLP, Policing Board - Plastic Bullets

SEAMUS McKEE

Plastic bullets can't be withdrawn here soon enough, that's the view of the SDLP following reports that the Government hopes to have an alternative in place before the end of the year. Alex Attwood of the SDLP who's on the Policing Board joins us.

Well is that the understanding of the Board, which is of course being consulted by the Government all along on this, and has been working on a replacement, has the Government told you the intention, or the hope is to withdraw plastic baton rounds by the end of the year?

ALEX ATTWOOD

The first thing is that plastic baton rounds can't be withdrawn soon enough, and whether it's this year or next year, it will come too late for far too many people who've been the victims of the plastic bullets. But the situation is that since the SDLP went on the Board there hasn't been a plastic bullet fired in one of the three police regions in the North, an example of how participating in policing structures can bring about good outcomes. 

The situation in respect of an alternative to plastic bullets is that Patten recommended the research program, that research program is ongoing, the Policing Board will get an update on that research program at a meeting in May, and I hope that this year or into next year the alternative to plastic bullets will be found, that a contract can be placed, the alternative can be manufactured, and the plastic bullet will be no more. But I had a meeting yesterday with the Chief Constable in the Policing Board Headquarters, and he confirmed to me, unfortunately, that whilst he would like to see plastic bullets gone, he will retain the option to use them until there is an alternative in place.

SEAMUS McKEE

And you see you're already referring to the possibility that it could be into next year before that happens. This is the question, it brings us to the question of the timing of this business of a possible replacement by the end of the year emerging now, just days before the two Prime Ministers are expected to reveal their blueprint, all of which could give the impression that any move on plastic bullets now is by way of a further encouragement to republicans to do a deal, rather than being the result of work by the Policing Board of which you're a member in the SDLP?

ALEX ATTWOOD

Well, the first thing is that, that I hope that whilst the research program was to conclude into 2004, and a contract might have been placed thereafter, I hope that can be done by the end of the year. I hope that can be done by the end of the summer. 

I hope that can be done as soon as possible, and it will be a decision of the Policing Board if it is done, because whether Sinn Fein are or are not on the Policing Board, it will be the parties of the Policing Board that will decide what to acquire in terms of public order equipment, including a non-lethal alternative to plastic bullets. 

So the power in this matter ultimately rests with the Policing Board, and with the SDLP driving the agenda. Whatever the politics at the moment, whatever people might say at this moment, the decision making power will arise with the Policing Board when they get the recommendations from the scientific and research program into alternatives.
 

Program: GMU
Date & Time 8:25 a.m., April 4, 2003 
Subject PLASTIC BULLETS

SEAMUS McKEE

Plastic bullets, how significant is the the timing of this emerging ahead of next week's expected visit here by the two Prime Ministers? On the line Gerry Kelly from Sinn Fein and the Ulster Unionist Alan McFarland. Gerry Kelly first of all do you accept some announcement next week from the Government to coincide with the expected visit of the two Prime Ministers? 

GERRY KELLY

Well I've seen the speculation reports, let me say first of all that plastics bullets are unacceptable, they have been unacceptable and they should be done away with. So it has been a key area of discussion during the talks and which has continued before that as well. 

So the sooner they go the better. I mean let's deal with the facts. The fact is that these are not used in public order situations in Britain and therefore should not be used (unclear).

SEAMUS McKEE

Do you expect to be on the Policing Board when the decision is taken? After all the decision making lies with the Board doesn't it, if an acceptable and effective alternative has been found?

GERRY KELLY

The actual situation evaluation project lies with the British Government. They do not use them in Britain as I have said and they should not use them here and you know over half of the people who were killed with plastic bullets were children so that's the reason to do away with them, they are a lethal round and they have killed people so they should not be used.
 

SEAMUS McKEE

Alan McFarland, do you want rid of them Alan McFarland?

ALAN McFARLAND

Well. I think we all want rid of them. I mean the reason they are being used of course is to protect police officers in the street who are being attacked by rioting mobs. If the rioting mobs didn't go out rioting, then they wouldn't need them, but I think we do need to put this in context. The Policing Board have spent a year now, along with the PSNI, examining alternatives to plastic baton rounds. 

Clearly if there's something better out there then we should go for it and it's taken a year. The study is due to finish later on this year and if there is something better then obviously we will be interested in using it, but the reality is we have a continuing duty of care on our police officers not to put them in danger on the street by not giving them equipment that allows them to keep rioters away from trying to kill them.

SEAMUS McKEE

When, Alan McFarland, would you see Northern Ireland ministers being in charge of all of these matters in policing and justice? Do you have any sense of what the Government will be proposing next week?

ALAN McFARLAND

I think several things have to happen. I mean nothing is going anywhere here until we have the acts of completion and the paramilitaries stood down, I mean that's a practical reality. We won't even get Government back up and running again until we get that sorted out. 

I think once it is sorted out and if we do have the Government up and running then clearly we have said for a long time now we are interested in having policing and criminal justice devolved back here because it makes part of the package and it makes sense.

SEAMUS McKEE

When would you see ministers taking over here?
 

ALAN McFARLAND

Well. the difficulty with it is that there's no point in them taking over until you know there's confidence in the system because the way it works is that we will have to run d'Hondt again and there's a possibility that Gerry Kelly might end up as the Minister for Justice.

SEAMUS McKEE

Would you go along with that? 

ALAN McFARLAND

Now the problem with that of course is that I don't think Northern Ireland is ready for Gerry Kelly as Minister for Justice and won't be for some time, so there is a confidence issue here. We have to see that republicanism is now peaceful and that confidence is built up and at that stage then I think we can look to devolving criminal justice and policing. 

SEAMUS McKEE

Gerry Kelly, Northern Ireland's not ready for you yet as Minister for Justice.

GERRY KELLY

The issue is not who would take over the position of Minister for Justice.

SEAMUS McKEE

Well a Sinn Fein Minister of Justice.

GERRY KELLY

Well, I could argue that the people are not ready for a unionist Minister of Justice but I''m not going to. What we need and what Alan McFarland has agreed is the transfer of powers is something which is a consequence of sorting out the policing issue and if we get that then we should move to that as soon as possible. 

What difference is there between transferring the power on justice and all the other departments. It is a matter of dealing with this issue and where it is best known and with the knowledge there is to deal with it.

SEAMUS McKEE

Do you think the IRA will within a couple of weeks be able to build the confidence that he says is so necessary by decommissioning very convincingly if not visibly and by saying that all its paramilitary activity is over.

GERRY KELLY

Well, the IRA has to say whatever it's going to say or do whatever it's going to do. What this whole situation is about is trying to show through people like Alan McFarland and myself and others that the politics work. That is our job and the fact that institution is down obviously makes it that more difficult to convince people.

SEAMUS McKEE

Alan McFarland do you have any sense that you will be able to agree a deal to restore the institutions on the basis of what happens next week.

ALAN McFARLAND

Well I think there is a possibility of all this. Everyone knows what has to be done. We as a party have tried this 3 times now and I have to say there is no appetite for jumping first again. 

SEAMUS McKee

But is there any sign of them doing it?

ALAN McFARLAND

I don't know, you'd better ask Gerry Kelly. He's in a much better position than I am to know whether republicans are going to do what is necessary to get Government up and running here again. Everyone knows what has to be done.

I think the people in Northern Ireland want it up and running. They want accountable democracy but sadly until we put the whole paramilitaries, loyalist and republican behind us and get on to a normal sensible footing, here then sadly I don't think it's going anywhere. 

SEAMUS McKEE

Gerry Kelly is it?

GERRY KELLY

Well what all the discussions were about was to try and bid in the whole situation of making politics work here. When you look at Alan McFarland and other Ulster Unionists you would think that there was only one issue which is IRA arms. The issue is all of the issues connected to the Good Friday Agreement and we have just went through, in terms of negotiation, to try and sort that out. So I hope that we can.