UVF End Contact with Decommissioning Body

By the Irish American Information Service

The Ulster Volunteer Force/Red Hand Commando today withdrew from disarmament talks with the international decommissioning body in Belfast. 
 Progressive Unionist Party Assembly member Billy Hutchinson, who was the negotiator for the loyalist group, said they were withdrawing because of the handling of the peace process.

 Party leader David Ervine also announced that the PUP was breaking off all contact with Sinn Féin until he knew exactly what Republican intentions were towards the unionist community.

 The PUP accused Prime Minister Tony Blair and Sinn Féin of operating an exclusive peace process and of trying to strike a deal behind closed doors. Hutchinson announced that he had just talked to General John de Chastelain`s commission.

 The North Belfast MLA said, "I have informed them that the UVF and Red Hand Commando have asked me and my colleagues to suspend any talks with them."

 The PUP assemblyman said there was great disillusionment in the loyalist group with the handling of the peace process, claiming that the British government only seem to be interested in a deal with republicans.

 "The blame for this lies fairly and squarely with Sinn Féin and the Prime Minister," he said. 

The UVF/RHC have yet to decommission any of their arsenal of weaponry.

Jan. 18, 2003
Unionists' Negativism Contributing to Unease, Says Sinn Féin

A negative approach by the Ulster Unionists towards talks aimed at restoring the Northern Ireland Assembly has contributed to loyalist paramilitary frustrations, Sinn Féin's Bairbre de Brun has said.

De Brun said the Ulster Volunteer Force's sense of alienation about the peace process was of concern. The former health minister also said it was worrying that the Progressive Unionist Party had broken off contact with Sinn Féin.

 On Friday, the UVF suspended all contacts with the arms decommissioning body headed by General John de Chastelain. PUP leader David Ervine claimed the continuing targeting of unionists by the IRA was causing disquiet within He said there would be further evidence of the extent of the IRA's targeting in the coming days.

 The PUP assembly member said the UVF's decision was "confirmation of the degree of dismay within the unionist community." However, Sinn Féin denied republicans were responsible for the UVF decision.

 Following Ervine's comments, a Downing Street spokesman insisted the process was not one-sided and that the principle of consent remained at the heart of the Good Friday Agreement. 

Reaction to the UVF statement saying that its ceasefire commitment was under strain, gets wide coverage today (Jan 17, 2003). Other political stories look at suggestions that the DUP's policy is becoming more pragmatic and statements to the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation in Dublin.

UVF Statement

IRA action 'puts strain on UVF ceasefire' - the peace process was last night dealt another blow when the Ulster Volunteer Force declared that IRA intransigence was putting the loyalist paramilitary group's ceasefire commitment under 'adverse strain'. The statement blamed republicans for 'wholesale targeting' of the unionist community. It pinpoints the current dearth of loyalist confidence in the process and is an ominous sign although its ceasefire is not understood to be under immediate threat Guardian, page 2.

Orde is worried over UVF warning. The Chief Constable last night described as worrying a warning from the UVF that its commitment to the peace process is wavering. Mr. Orde said he had no specific intelligence to suggest that the UVF ceasefire was under threat and added that the UVF had behaved as well as any other organization on ceasefire Irish News, page 1.

UVF peace warning. A major declaration will be made this morning by the Progressive Unionist Party after the UVF warning that its commitment to the peace process is faltering. David Ervine, Hugh Smith and Billy Hutchinson will make a 'number of important announcements' in the wake of the UVF statement News Letter, page 1.

UVF's ceasefire warning. Leaders of the UVF and the Red Hand Commando issued a statement saying their ceasefire was in danger. They also warned the British and Irish Governments not to make concessions to republicans as part of any attempt to revive Stormont Mirror, page 2.

The following transcripts are courtesy of the Ireland Information Service.

BILLY HUTCHINSON, PUP - STATEMENT - TALKBACK , 
Jan. 17, 2003

DAVID DUNSEITH

Billy Hutchinson, will it make an awful lot of difference, because we've talked about this before, and with some of your colleagues. There was no notion at all, as we knew, of the UVF even thinking of decommissioning. So does this make any difference?

BILLY HUTCHINSON

Well I think if there ever was, it was destroyed by Tony Blair. And the reason why I say that is, that the British and Irish Governments, and all the political parties who signed the Agreement, had agreed that what should happen - a decommissioning body should be set up. It should be international, it should be independent, and it should be about taking the arms out of politics, and it should be about taking it away from politics altogether, so that politicians didn't make decisions. The difficulty with that was that, well in fact the UVF and the Red Hand Commando were the first organizations to appoint an interlocutor back in October 1997, which was myself. And if you remember that date, it was before the Good Friday Agreement was signed. It was done for a number of reasons, and it was done to inject some sort of passivity into society, not into the process, but into society. We then had Tony Blair who thought that he could have a day of reconciliation, where he could equate the weapons of the British State against the weapons of paramilitary organizations, which in my view and in the view of my party, would be quite simply a recognition that the IRA struggle, as they describe it, was legitimate.

DAVID DUNSEITH

If they feel, and the people who support them feel, it's legitimate, then it is. In the same way, sorry just to get this clear, in the same way as you and the people who would support you, or support the UVF, would feel their cause as legitimate, whereas the great mass of the people out there might say, we don't think any of it is legitimate.

BILLY HUTCHINSON

I accept what you're saying, David, but the point is that the British Government would have been legitimizing it. And if you understand republicanism, you will understand that republicanism believes that I am a deluded Irishman, and not a British citizen. Now, you know, the UVF made it quite clear in their statement, that the British presence on this island in Northern Ireland are the British people, not Tony Blair, not the British Army, and not Paul Murphy or the NIO.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Haven't the republicans accepted it? Surely it's more embarrassing Š.

BILLY HUTCHINSON

Republicans do not accept that, David.

DAVID DUNSEITH

But they're going up past Carson's statue, Billy, into Stormont, accepting Northern Ireland. I mean did that not surprise you when that happened?

BILLY HUTCHINSON

David I mean those are the things that we have made arguments about. But what you need to realize is that Gerry Adams and co are not telling their people that. Gerry Adams and co are telling their people that they are dealing directly with the British Prime Minister, and we have had this before 1921. 

And I mean what I am saying to you is, that they need to realize that the problems will be resolved here in Northern Ireland, whether it's in Belfast, whether it's in Armagh, or whether it's in Londonderry, this will be where they're resolved, but it will only be resolved when everybody around the table can make moves in this process which benefit all of the people of Northern Ireland, and not one section.

DAVID DUNSEITH

You feel that you are excluded, or have been excluded, reading some of the accounts. So there's a degree of exclusion.

BILLY HUTCHINSON

We feel that the loyalist people have been excluded.

DAVID DUNSEITH

What do you mean by the loyalist people? Are you talking about the people who voted for the Ulster Unionists and for Bob McCartney and the DUP, who would all describe themselves as loyalist people, wouldn't they?

BILLY HUTCHINSON

Of course they would.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Do they feel that?

BILLY HUTCHINSON

Well, I mean, maybe you should describe me as a unionist politician rather than as a loyalist, David. I mean I think we can get into semantics, but what I am saying to you is that the area which I come from, which is a working class Protestant unionist/loyalist area, I can assure you that people feel excluded. 

I mean the whole reason why we have problems on interfaces, and everything else, can be simply explained by some people as sectarianism. It goes deeper than that, David, and I'll tell you why, because the only people who have benefited from this process have been the middle classes. And until we actually realize that there is a process which should reach down into the very depths of our community Š.

DAVID DUNSEITH

To do what?

BILLY HUTCHINSON

To deal with the issues that are out there.

DAVID DUNSEITH

What?

BILLY HUTCHINSON

And the issues that are out there, like sectarianism and everything else, have to be dealt with through inclusive politics, not exclusive politics.

DAVID DUNSEITH

You know, just to say, let's deal with sectarianism. That's a huge order. You and I will be long gone, and they'll still be grappling with sectarianism.

BILLY HUTCHINSON

Well, of course, there was sectarianism before there were paramilitaries.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Absolutely, it's been there, it's part of the psyche of this community. But what are you saying that the loyalist people are not getting that they ought to get?

BILLY HUTCHINSON

Well what I am saying to you is, and I'm interpreting the UVF statement, and what I am saying to you is, that it's quite clear from the UVF statement that the UVF are saying, that you cannot have a one-sided process. You can not have a process which is one-sided, because it creates distrust, and that distrust is about, if the IRA are on the eve of making a move, whether it be decommissioning or whether it be disbandment, and neither of the 2 I believe, but if that was the case, then how do the loyalist people interpret that? 

The loyalist people will interpret it because they have been excluded, that it's a move by them to get 2 Ministers back into Stormont, nothing else. And I think that that's the wrong way to do this. If we were in an inclusive process, then we would know why the IRA were doings things, and we would understand that they are being done in the interests of all the people, but they're not.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Leave aside the people who might support republicans, or support you. I'm thinking about the rest of the people now, and I'm sure a lot of questions are running through their heads, ones that I'll not have an opportunity to ask, because we don't have all that much time. There are a lot of people out there listening to you, and they're listening to representatives of Sinn Féin, that want to say to you, look we've no truck, and we want no truck with paramilitaries, of any description. 

Why should we take any notice of the views of self-appointed people on the streets, who just happen to join an illegal organization, and some of them are given guns and cudgels? Why should we take note of what they say, they're not elected?

BILLY HUTCHINSON

I accept that. The IRA are not elected, but it seems to be that everybody pays attention, yes, but it seems to be that people ..

DAVID DUNSEITH

Sinn Féin are elected, you are elected.

BILLY HUTCHINSON

Of course I am. What I am saying to you is, that each individual in this society has to make a decision about those things. And whether they like it or whether they don't, you know, you will have the opposite to that, where you will have people who actually support these organizations, and have supported them for 30 years, and they actually see them as being the defenders of whatever, whether it's republicanism or loyalism. But the reality is, that there are people who are elected, and I feel that those people who have been elected to represent those views, have been cut out of everything, and it seems to be that it's a one-way process.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Finally, on the question of sectarianism, which you mentioned a moment or 2 ago, and you can throw all the other words in - hate and bitterness - we have been there for a long, long time before there was ever any mention of the organizations we've been discussing. 

How do you decommission sectarianism? Now one way I would suggest to you that you don't do, and which I think came out at your news conference this morning. You want to cut off links with Sinn Féin, talking to Sinn Féin, perhaps links with Sinn Féin in the interface areas, have you decided to do that?

BILLY HUTCHINSON

Well I think that we shouldn't misconstrue what was said. I think that what David Ervine said at the press conference was that he represented the views of our party, and they were that in terms of the process, in terms of the negotiations that are going at Stormont, we will not be involved in bilaterals to discuss those, but they will not exclude us Š

DAVID DUNSEITH

But how is that going to (unclear)?

BILLY HUTCHINSON

Well they will not exclude us from taking part in our Council work or in our Assembly work or any other work that benefits the people out there, whether they are Protestant or whether they are Catholic, whether they are unionist or whether they are nationalist, or whether they're loyalist or whether they're republican. We will continue to do what we believe needs to be done in terms of moving society forward.

DAVID DUNSEITH

I just notice there a thing in from Sinn Féin, because on the question of, finally, about the accusation which came from the UVF, I think the IRA accusing them of wholesale sectarian targeting of unionist people, and I think the view may be expressed by some on the nationalist republican side, that's a bit like the kettle calling the pot black, in terms of collecting of intelligence and information over many, many years. 

And I see here that Gerry Kelly's issued a statement saying community workers based in the North and East of the city, visited by the PSNI, told their details were found in the hands of loyalists. So you get this saying now, unionist paramilitaries targeting the people as well.

BILLY HUTCHINSON

Well it's amazing that, you know, Gerry has issued this statement after we have done this. It sounds very much like, you know, it happened to you and it's happening to us. I don't dispute that these sorts of things happen to republicans, but it is, you know, a bit insensitive of Gerry to actually issue this statement when he knows that thousands of people of the pro-unionist community have actually been visited. And it's not the question of saying that nationalists have not been visited.

 I'm not aware of whether nationalists have or whether they haven't. But the difficulty with all of this is, if we continue to make the arguments that it doesn't matter whether unionists were visited because our people were visited, then we will not resolve the problems. And the problem is that unionists were visited, and the problem is that the information did come, not only from IRA men, but also other people who were involved in different organizations.
 

JOE O'DONNELL - STATEMENT BY PUP - TALKBACK, 
Jan. 17, 2003 

DAVID DUNSEITH

..Billy Hutchinson has been saying there. What impact, if any, will this have do you think?

JOE O'DONNELL

Well first of all, David, let me say that I think it's very regrettable, this decision taken by the PUP today and I think a great onus on this decision lies within the broad spectrum of unionism, not least of all with the Ulster Unionist Party, because what we effectively are seeing now is the outworkings of anti-Agreement unionism. 

The PUP, to be honest, were left with very little alternative, in that the broad Ulster Unionist constituency now is, publicly at least, anti-Agreement. They are competing with the DUP and funnily enough it comes on the back of the DUP saying that they perhaps will wish to engage with Sinn Féin.

DAVID DUNSEITH

But it's the unfair, you've heard what Billy Hutchinson said, it's the unfair advantage bit that rankles with them and they see your leader and various other representatives of Sinn Féin who seem to have collared the ear, as it were, of the Prime Minister, and the loyalist people feel more and more and more isolated. Now that can only lead to more friction?

JOE O'DONNELL

Well, David, first of all, I'm not going to condemn the leadership of republicanism for giving effective leadership and for their role within negotiations. I mean republicanism and nationalism has always broadly said, we want this to be an inclusive process. 

We have said that from day one. I mean we want everyone involved, we wish everyone to be involved, we hope everybody will engage but, I mean, what Billy's saying there I find it very difficult. I mean, he said, he made two points for example, let me come back on them. 

They have broken off negotiations with de Chastelain, I mean the only people who have engaged effectively with de Chastelain have been the IRA, they have made two very significant acts of decommissioning.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Only two and very slow and very cumbersome it's been?

JOE O'DONNELL

Well the UVF have made none.

DAVID DUNSEITH

Oh, absolutely, I mean there is no question about that.

JOE O'DONNELL

We look at this in the context of it, I think that the republican movement in general and the IRA in particular, if you like, have encouraged this process at every step. I mean you made the point yourself that Gerry Kelly was saying. 

I mean I was sitting with families in the Short Strand area, for example, last night who had been visited and told that their details were in the hands of loyalist paramilitaries, that they were effectively on a target list. I spoke to Margaret McClenaghan, the Councillor for Ardoyne, last week where people had been visited and told the same thing and this is a regular occurrence.

I'm saying it specifically because it happened last night and last week in Ardoyne, but it's a regular occurrence within nationalist communities. So these things happen, what we need to be saying is, bring this to an end, move forward, let politics work. Let's resolve the difference, there are differences, whatever they may be, through the political process, because what we have in a vacuum is the opportunity for people to move in, as you rightly said, who aren't elected, who aren't part of the political process. But I have to make the point I think unionism needs to give a lead. Unionism, in its broadest sense, needs to give a lead to its community.
 
DAVID DUNSEITH

Well I think, finally, all political representatives ought to give a lead because I don't know whether you'd acknowledge or not, but most people feel that both groups, whether they're republican or loyalist, they're all there gathering intelligence or information. It's the very nature of things, it's in their tradition and until such times as that sort of thing ceases we are going to have to deal with this, we're going to have to go through all these traps for many years to come?

JOE O'DONNELL

Yes, that's possible but I have to say, and I welcome what Billy Hutchinson said at the end of the statement there, that effectively where the PUP, I have to say, have worked at interfaces to help resolve difficulties that, he didn't say that they weren't going to continue to engage in that positive way. So I think there is, we need to look at the positives coming out of statements like this.

MARK SIMPSON - PUP/UVF STATEMENT - BBC NEWS 
24, Jan 17, 2003

MARK SIMPSON

(Unclear) looking what's happened here in East Belfast today. I think optimists will say, this is really just a cry for attention by a very small party. I think pessimists will say, there could be a real threat now to the UVF ceasefire, as to what I think, I think the truth probably lies somewhere in between those 2 arguments.

REPORTER

What about the diplomatic process, the difficulties for that?

MARK SIMPSON

Big difficulties, because what's been happening in recent weeks is that Tony Blair on the one hand, and Gerry Adams, the President of Sinn Fein on the other hand, have been trying to concoct, for want of a better word, a deal to try and put Stormont, which is just up the road from here, back together again. 

And they've been doing some would say a pretty secret, pretty private deal, but what David Ervine and what this whole party is saying here this morning is, there needs to be more transparency, or there's no chance at all, if they eventually get a deal of selling it to people like David Ervine and Billy Hutchinson, who you saw earlier.

REPORTER

So they're unhappy then, we understand, about concessions that are being given to the republicans to try to get the bodies up and running again? Do we know much about what is being offered behind the scenes?

MARK SIMPSON

We don't know for sure, but we can guess. One would say that Gerry Adams, if he's talking to Tony Blair, saying well you may be able to get the IRA to move, you may be able to get the IRA to move somewhere towards disbandment, but in return, you're going to have to bring an awful lot of troops back home to England, you're going to have to demilitarize a lot of Northern Ireland, you're going to have an awful lot more police reforms, and to loyalists, the people who were in this room just a short time ago, they're saying to Tony Blair, very clearly this morning, that the price is too high a price to pay.

MICHAEL MCGIMPSEY - UVF STATEMENT - EVENING EXTRA, Jan. 16, 2003 

AUDREY CARVILLE

Mr. McGimpsey, in relation to this statement, first of all, from the UVF and Red Hand Commandos, what do you make of it?

MICHAEL MCGIMPSEY

I think, well firstly on the positive side I don't see any imminent threat to the ceasefire in this statement and I don't see any imminent threat to the process. But what I do see clearly through this statement is a lack of patience, a lack of patience with the process, a lack of patience with the way they believe that their constituency is being treated, and I think clearly a lack of patience with republicans and the IRA and I think that comes through very strongly.

AUDREY CARVILLE

But inclusive in that is there a threat that unless this is dealt with by the two Governments violence will resume, there will be a withdrawal from the peace process?

MICHAEL MCGIMPSEY

I'm not saying that, I couldn't interpret that through this statement, I think that would be a matter for the organizations speaking for themselves to make those type of pronouncements. 

And as far as a threat's concerned, I think, clearly, any organization such as the UVF or the IRA, or the UDA, which remains in place and has the sort of capacity that they have for violence through their weaponry and their arsenals of weaponry, clearly are a threat. Now the UVF ceasefire has been intact since 1994 with some exceptions, and I think David Ervine has been fairly frank about that situation.

 It is a ceasefire that, clearly it's in everybody's interest to ensure it stays in place and their support for the process stays in place and I think that there are certain steps need to be taken, and I think the prime step that needs to be taken is the Government needs to address this organization, through its political representatives, they clearly feel they are being side lined.

AUDREY CARVILLE

Well, do you agree with their central point, that deals are going on behind closed doors between republicans, between the British Government, between your party as well, that all the other parties and players in this are being isolated, don't know what's going on?

MICHAEL MCGIMPSEY

I think from the point of view from my party, at the moment as I see the process, we're still in shadow boxing mode, but clearly that shadow boxing mode will come to an end sooner rather than later and the process will warm up and I think that the PUP representatives at our round table talks, for example, have expressed strongly their opinion and their position that they are not going to be side lined and they can't be taken for granted and I think this reinforces that position. 

And I think it's a step that the Government needs to take and can take. If you have a constituency such as this that has shown overall support for the process through their ceasefire and so on, if they're becoming impatient, if they're becoming unhappy, I think the Government needs to talk to them and needs to do that urgently.

AUDREY CARVILLE

Is Jeffrey Donaldson right when he says that a deal is on the cards to allow these 'on the run' republicans back to Northern Ireland without facing the prospect of jail?

MICHAEL MCGIMPSEY

I'm not clear that that is correct, but I can't deny it. As I say, my understanding of the process is now, we're in shadow boxing mode. I think that as far as 'on the runs' are concerned my party's position is very clear, that they will face due process. 

They are eventually entitled to early release under license as has been other prisoners, but as things stand we would not be prepared to sign up to a process that allows 'on the runs' some form of amnesty and to allow them out, they must face due process and I think that that is something that the Government will take on board and I think it's something that the Government are positioned to understand very well.

SAMMY WILSON - UVF STATEMENT - GMU, Jan. 17, 2003 

SEAMUS MCKEE

Šis indicative of the general disillusionment within the unionist community. In a statement to the BBC the UVF and Red Hand Commando warned their commitment to the peace process was under strain, and they blamed the IRA for what they call 'the current dearth of confidence in the process'.

You talk about disillusionment but, while people wouldn't blame the DUP for what the UVF said yesterday, they would perhaps point out that a lot of what's been coming from unionist representatives, including the DUP, has been rather defeatist in terms of unionism at the moment. Talk of a sell out, talk of a transition to a united Ireland. Talk of all the benefits of the Agreement going one way. I mean is there any sense in which that has contributed to the disillusionment do you think?

SAMMY WILSON

No, I think that the disillusionment is the result of the reality that this has been a one way process. This has been an Agreement designed to appease republican violence and it's significant that one by one those who were very, very, vociferous supporters of the Agreement are jumping ship. 

First of all it was the UDA, then it was half of the Ulster Unionist Party, now it's the UVF, and all of that has been based on the reality which we put forward at the time of the Referendum, that really this Agreement was nothing about securing the union, this Agreement was about appeasing republicans. Now, I think that many people within the UVF, over the last year, many of them coming from working class areas, have seen their communities devastated by attacks from republican mobs. Many of those mobs being orchestrated and led by a party which is now in Government, has been given all of the rewards which stemmed from the Agreement, and people are bound to be disillusioned that the kind of bright new future that was painted four years ago is no longer the case.

SEAMUS MCKEE

But, of course, those attacks that you talk about haven't only been from one side or the other and the question is what to do about that, and it's one thing to talk about a flawed Agreement, it's another thing, surely, to be talking about what many will regard, particularly within unionism, as an erosion of confidence in those communities. Can that all be put down to the Agreement or can it also be said to have been due to a lack of leadership in those communities?

SAMMY WILSON

No, it's totally down to what has happened with the Agreement. I mean the Agreement has seen the traditional force which maintained law and order totally decimated. It has also seen those who have orchestrated violence elevated into positions in Government. It has seen them rewarded and it has seen vulnerable communities left even more vulnerable and it has also seen, unionists have seen, increasing moves towards all Ireland institutions, which are in no way accountable to any one in Northern Ireland .

I think that this is probably where the UVF thing is coming from, most of all this is a disillusionment of people who have been lied to by those within the unionist community who sold the Agreement to them in the first place. 

It's significant, Seamus, I can remember four years ago, some of those people who have probably put their name to this Agreement, where we were describing them as the storm troopers of the pro-Agreement unionist parties, they were breaking up our press conferences, they were involving themselves in verbal attacks on our party etc, all things which are well documented on your program at the time, and now I think that they've come to realize that our analysis of the Agreement was the correct one.

SEAMUS MCKEE

One brief point to finish with. There will be a concern now among Catholics, particularly if as anticipated today, it may be said and announced that the PUP or that the loyalists, UVF, is withdrawing contact with de Chastelain. Now there will be a worry among Catholics that that means that they could again become targets. What would you say, or what can be said to reassure those people this morning?
 
SAMMY WILSON

Well, Seamus, first of all, my criticism of the Agreement is that it has led to a more violent society and a society which has reduced the quality of life for many people, especially working class communities at the interfaces. I don't want to see that for either my community or for the Catholic community. 

The other thing I don't want to see is another generation of young loyalists finishing up, engaging in paramilitary activity, and spending their time behind bars, and therefore I trust, and the UVF haven't spelt out what this means, but I trust that this will not mean that there will be a return to general violence, orchestrated by loyalist paramilitaries on the streets.
 

ALBAN MAGINNESS, SDLP - UVF STATEMENT - Good Morning Ulster, Jan. 17, 2003

CONOR BRADFORD

Sammy Wilson's line there really was that the UVF peace warning is further evidence of Protestant disenchantment with a sort of post agreement world we live in, do you read it like that?

ALBAN MAGINNESS

No, I don't, this is a paramilitary organization making what I believe is a very worrying statement. There's no immediate threat made to the ceasefire but certainly implicit in what they are saying is that there could well be threats. These are war like noises off stage, rather than on stage, and there is, I think, a generalized implied threat, this is threatening language, and it's something which disturbs me. 

I think that their main point of substance in their statement is that they see what they term bilateral agreements between Government and the republican movement, and they see this as a problem. We see that as a problem, we have said constantly, Mark Durkan has said constantly, that these 5 bar agreements between the republican movement and the British Government, and indeed maybe, and at times the Irish Government, are things that are unacceptable. 

We say therefore we should tackle all the outstanding issues together, and comprehensively across the table involving all the parties, but what is the UVF saying, what are the PUP saying? They're saying, well we will not engage in talks, we will not attend talks, then they complain that they are not part of the process.

CONOR BRADFORD

Well, the point is, Alban Maginness, I mean if you and the SDLP feel the Prime Minister is doing deals behind the backs of people to keep the republicans on board, and that irritates you, you can imagine what the feeling in the UVF is?

ALBAN MAGINNESS

Yes, but the point I'm making to you Conor is this. That the logic of that is not to walk away. The logic of that is to say, yes, everybody has got to be involved, there has to be a comprehensive look at all the outstanding issues, let's get the institutions back as a result of a comprehensive deal, right across all the parties, so that the institutions are sustainable, so that we do have stability in the system, that we're leaping from crisis to crisis, that we have a continuous administration here, that can look at all the problems. Now what we are saying to the PUP and the UVF in terms is this, look don't walk away from this process, what you are doing in fact is counterproductive. Stay in there.

CONOR BRADFORD

Well, how can you make life easier for say, David Ervine and Billy Hutchinson, and make it more attractive for them to stay on board, which you say is so important?

ALBAN MAGINNESS

Well you know, it's not for us as a political party to make life more attractive or easy for them Š

CONOR BRADFORD

Well, you represent a large tranche of the population, I mean it's a question of a warm house for all, as we've heard in the past?

ALBAN MAGINNESS

Conor, we accept that there are problems in the unionist community amongst Protestant people, and in fact in the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation yesterday in Dublin, it was made apparently clear by the churches that there are problems there. 

But we in the SDLP respond to that by saying, yes, of course there are problems, let's sit round the table and let's address all those problems comprehensively, and that's what we hope can be done. But that cannot be served, and I emphasize this point, that cannot be served by the PUP walking away. You know, you talk about making life easy for the PUP, the PUP is a political party in its own right, it is associated with a pretty ruthless paramilitary organization. 

The PUP isn't a male branch of the Women's Coalition, that has to be helped along. It is associated with an armed wing, and that armed wing has been involved in fomenting disorder and disturbance during the summer in Short Strand, in East Belfast, and you know, it has contributed very forcefully to instability and the problems here that exist in Belfast and indeed in Northern Ireland. So they cannot get away without blame.

DAVID BLEVINS - PUP STATEMENT ON UVF - SKY NEWS, Jan. 17, 2003 
 
MARTIN

Within the last half hour, two loyalist paramilitary groups have broken off contact with the International Decommissioning Body. They are the Ulster Volunteer Force and the Red Hand Brigade (sic).

DAVID BLEVINS

Yes, Martin, last night actually the Ulster Volunteer Force, which is the smaller of the two main loyalist paramilitary groupings, and another group, the Red Hand Commandos, indicated that their attitude towards the Northern Ireland peace process had changed. They blamed the IRA for placing them in this difficult position in a statement issued last night. Subsequent to that this morning, indeed within the last half hour as you say, the political wing of the UVF, that's the Progressive Unionist Party, headed by David Ervine, has indicated that the military wing if you like, the UVF is now withdrawing contact with General John de Chastelain and his International Commission on Decommissioning. So another further blow for the peace process in Northern Ireland.

MARTIN

Do we know why now, David?

DAVID BLEVINS

They clearly believe that the IRA has been engaged in activity which is contrary to the IRA and Sinn Féin's claim that it is actively engaged in a peace process. They are concerned, very clearly, about that raid which took place at the end of last year at Stormont which led to allegations of an IRA spy ring, along with the allegation prior to that of IRA involvement in a break in at a Belfast Police Station. They believe the IRA is not playing the peace game by the rules and they believe that's placed them in this untenable position.

***

GERRY KELLY - UVF STATEMENT - GMU, Jan. 17, 2003 
SEAMUS MCKEE

Šparamilitaries to whom the party's linked. The UVF has said its commitment to the peace process is under strain. In a statement issued with the Red Hand Commando it warned the two Governments not to make concessions to republicans as part of an attempt to revive the Assembly and Executive. The Progressive Unionists are due to hold a press conference this morning.

What's your view of what the UVF said?

GERRY KELLY

Well, I think it's a backward step. I would have to refute utterly the accusations or excuses that they made and that it was blamed on republicans. I think this is more to do with internal rivalry within the unionist and loyalist community and political parties than anything else, and I would hope they would reconsider it. 

But, let me say this, I know there's a PUP press conference later on, I don't know what David Ervine's going to say but the statement blames republicans. In fact in the last round table talks David Ervine himself said that it was the UUP and David Trimble who had forced them into a situation where they couldn't stay in those talks.

SEAMUS MCKEE

But is it clear that there is a concern there about side deals between the two Governments and republicans from which the loyalists, represented by the PUP and the UVF itself, feel excluded. Now is that any way to conduct negotiations which are supposed to be about an inclusive arrangement?

SEAMUS MCKEE

Well let's be clear where we are. There is an inclusive arrangement, it's called the Good Friday Agreement, no one asked for side deals and if the side deals ever started it was right at the beginning when Tony Blair, in fact, made a side deal with unionists. 

We have always argued that it be up front, out and open and in fact Sinn Féin is the party who wants to talk to, and who has pursued dialogue with, all the parties, large or small, the pro-Agreement parties, and indeed with the DUP. It has been others, and it seems to be expanding now, who are refusing to talk to Sinn Féin. SoŠ.

SEAMUS MCKEE

Did you say you've been talking to the DUP?

GERRY KELLY

I said we have pursued talking with the DUP and the DUP have refused.

SEAMUS MCKEE

Right.

GERRY KELLY

We have been talking to all the other pro-Agreement parties.

SEAMUS MCKEE

The question, just to pursue this for a moment, there is in loyalism a divide. There are those who oppose this process, there are others who support it, including the PUP for the moment, we don't know what they're going to say today. Indeed you have worked with PUP leaders in trying to calm things in interface areas when there's been conflict there. Now, how are they to be kept in this process?

GERRY KELLY

I think that they have to answer that themselves. I mean my argument is that they should reconsider. There is also a very large amount of pro-Agreement unionist and loyalist voters out there, and unfortunately, and if the PUP withdraw from the talks as they have indicated at the last round table talks, then I think it is a terrible situation because then you will not have any political figures actually arguing for that large amount of pro-Agreement unionists who voted for the Agreement.

SEAMUS MCKEE

And indeed there will be a concern, I presume, within republicanism about then, in a situation like that, about who then speaks for unionism and who can deliver unionism?

GERRY KELLY

Well, I mean, let's be honest. On the ground what the fear will be is that things may escalate. I mean we shouldn't be naïve about this. Over the last three years the biggest threat to this Agreement has been the 400 gun and bomb attacks and the deaths which have actually occurred at the hands of loyalists. So of course people are going to be very worried about this and which is why I'm saying that the people, they should step back and realize that the institutions which were set up were the very way to resolve whatever problems there may be in an Agreement which all the pro-Agreement parties signed up to, including loyalists. So let's get the institutions set up, let's implement the Agreement, that's the base of it, that's where we actually have an Agreement, and the wrong way to do it is to take David Trimble's example and to walk away from these institutions and dialogue.

SEAMUS MCKEE

Well he would deny that he's walking away from it.

PUP/UVF STATEMENT - SKY, Jan. 17, 2003 

NEWSREADER

Šcoming into us from Northern Ireland, that is that the loyalist paramilitary group the Ulster Volunteer Force and the Red Hand Commandos have announced today that they are breaking off contact with the International Decommissioning Body in Belfast. We'll try and get more reaction to that for you, but in the meantime, loyalist paramilitary group, the Ulster Volunteer Force and the Red Hand Commandos have broken off contact with the Decommissioning Body in Belfast.

BRIAN ROWAN - UVF STATEMENT - GMU 8.00 NEWS, Jan. 17, 2003 

BRIAN ROWAN

Yesterday the UVF and the Red Hand Commando spoke and this morning it's the turn of the politically aligned PUP. Their talking will be done at a news conference in the East of the city and the party is saying a number of important announcements will be made when David Ervine and Billy Hutchinson step on to the stage. 

There's speculation that one of the those announcements will be a withdrawal from talks with the de Chastelain decommissioning body. Yesterday the UVF and Red Hand Commando spoke of their commitment to the peace process being under strain, but made clear there was no imminent threat to their ceasefire. The Chief Constable, Hugh Orde, says that's his assessment as well.

HUGH ORDE

Any organization that's currently on ceasefire, and the UVF have been on ceasefire and they've behaved as well as any other organization on ceasefire, talks about walking away from it causes me concern. Our job is to protect the community of Northern Ireland and if anyone starts to talk about walking away from the peace process then that worries me, of course it does.

BRIAN ROWAN

Negotiations to rebuild the political process have entered a crucial phase, but loyalists believe they're being ignored. Yesterday a senior UVF source told me they were being brushed out of the process by the two Governments and he said their aim was not to achieve the decommissioning of loyalist arms but the decommissioning of loyalism itself.