9/14/02

INSIDE POLITICS - GERRY ADAMS, GEORGE SAVAGE AND ROBERT OLIVER
 
MARK DEVENPORT

Regular listeners know that on this programme we assiduously monitor the state of the paramilitary ceasefires and the process in general, so imagine our surprise when the Government confirmed this week that it was going to pay a foreign VIP lots of tax payers money to do our job. 

The Alliance Party first mooted the idea of an independent ceasefire auditor, but the Ulster Unionist leader, David Trimble, has run with the ball and it's certain that he'll be trumpeting the decision as another of his achievements when he faces up to his party's grass roots in a crucial council meeting in a weeks time. 

Later in this programme, we'll be discussing what might happen at that meeting with two of the 860 Ulster Unionist Council members who hold Mr Trimble's fate in their hands. 

But first, to a politician, who earlier this week, expressed his concern that the peace process was fast becoming a 'Save Dave' process, that's the Sinn Fein president, Gerry Adams. I asked Gerry Adams if he was opposed to a ceasefire monitor just because he didn't want republicans and loyalists subjected to outside scrutiny?

GERRY ADAMS

No, not at all. I don't want distractions in the process. I don't want to see a British Government which should be fulfilling its own obligations, bending over backwards every time there's a UUC meeting, to come up with some other, you know, little germ of an idea. 

Look at the commissions which we have, the Patten Commission, ridiculed, attacked by the Ulster Unionist Party. The Human Rights Commission, already in a state of crisis and attacked by the Ulster Unionist Party. The de Chastelain Commission, under perpetual pressure from all of the unionists and, you know, I don't have any problem, I have to say, with monitors or auditors and Sinn Fein, certainly, has nothing to hide from any of this. 

But, you know, even if people wanted to be a wee bit more pragmatic, will this satisfy David Burnside? Does this mean that Jeffrey Donaldson is now going to fully embrace the Agreement? The demands are insatiable and it's about time a British Government set itself to task of actually, with the rest of us, promoting, developing, implementing the Agreement. 

The British Secretary of State the other day, in a very defensive mode, and previously had told us that this was a Mark Durkan idea and a David Ford idea. But in a very defensive mode said, well what the people here want to know is, what paramilitary's doing this, and what paramilitary's doing that and are things being improved? 

What people want is all violence stopped, that's what people want and once again here we are off on a little side track, off on a little diversion. So our opposition to it is that it won't help the process. Whatever we should do should be within the terms of the Good Friday Agreement and should be about helping the process.

MARK DEVENPORT

If this ceasefire or paramilitary violence monitor wants to get information, not just from the police but from the various sides in this process, will republicans co-operate with him or her?

GERRY ADAMS

Well, you know, we've had all sorts of bogus little agencies going in the past. The one held up by Vincent McKenna springs to mind. The BBC, if I may say so, are not playing a very balanced role, in terms of what it was presented almost as tit for tat around interfaces, and then on the very end of a very difficult summer we have the, one of the Assistant Chief Constables eventually admitting that the significant majority of the violence is coming from within loyalist paramilitaries. 

We have loyalist paramilitaries who are unashamedly off cessation. So, we weren't consulted about this auditor. It came up at the meeting which we did with the British Secretary of State, the announcement came a day or two later. I don't think it will serve the process, but let's wait to see precisely what they put together because we don't know yet, no one knows yet what they're going to put together.

MARK DEVENPORT

But do you think republicans will be ready to co-operate with a person fulfilling this kind of broad role or will it be something you'd stand away from as in the Police Service?

GERRY ADAMS

Well I don't know and incidentally we're not standing away from the business of the Police Service. We have engaged with the two Governments and indeed with the SDLP on availing of the next opportunity to try and get the British Government to deliver on Patten. Now, let's just look at what's happening within the policing debate.

On Monday, Dr. Reid told us that, after we pushed him a little bit, that they did intend to bring in legislation in the next term. Mark Durkan announced that as a great breakthrough, it's been on the cards for the last year or two. 

What's important is what is in that legislation, and I do think that the Irish Government, and I do think ourselves, and I do think the SDLP have to, in an unselfish way, above and beyond party political concerns, try and crunch down to ensure that this is a return to Patten. This is a return to the promise of the Good Friday Agreement on policing, because Sinn Féin wants to be involved in the policing dispensation and it isn't just a judgement call because we're used to taking judgement calls. 

It is that we don't have at the moment the threshold, and the SDLP admit this, the Irish Government admit this and even the British Government implicit in what they are saying is, that they haven't delivered on Patten, because if they'd delivered on Patten why would they be bringing in legislation to amend what is already there. 

So, let's try and ensure on the crucial issues, and the summer, you see, I mean, a person said to me the other day, when I asked him about policing, what was his attitude to policing, he says, if it looks like the RUC, it acts like the RUC, then it is the RUC, and unfortunately in interface areas the PSNI have behaved precisely the same way as the RUC behaved.

MARK DEVENPORT

You're obviously not prepared to take the big steps, joining the Policing Board or encouraging people to join the Police Service until you get that amending legislation and you see that it meets your bottom line. But how about, maybe, some kind of intermediate gesture, for instance, other party leaders, over the course of this last week, have been meeting Hugh Orde. 

I don't need to tell you the importance of handshake diplomacy and symbols. How about, say, meeting him and saying, if you're somebody who's prepared to preside over change, well we'll support you in that?

GERRY ADAMS

Well, I've never rule out meeting with Hugh Orde and indeed as someone who has long argued on the need for dialogue it would be rather hypocritical for me to refuse to meet the man. 

I've no plans to meet him at this time but I have no problem with actually meeting with him and there is a possibility, as a person who comes from a slightly different policing culture, who, as far as I know, doesn't come from a counter-insurgency background, who is about policing in terms of detection, prevention of crime and genuine law and order, even a British form of law and order. 

There is a possibility that he could make some change in what's happening at the moment. But, he still, he still is not presiding over what should be, in terms of the Good Friday Agreement, a Policing Service. For example, how come that he could announce that the reserves were going to be kept? 

I thought that was a job for the Policing Board? How come that when I quizzed the Secretary of State on this at my meeting last week, he says, well it is his job for the Policing Board but it's also, you know, I have to stand over all of this. 

And there in that little example you see the problem, because if we had civic policing it would be the Policing Board who would decide whether the reserves should be kept.
 
MARK DEVENPORT

But just to clarify, it is possible that we could get, say, a meeting between the Chief Constable and yourself prior to Sinn Fein fully finishing its deliberations?

GERRY ADAMS

Our people, all the time, in interface areas, in other circumstances, meet, and I've done it myself, and talk and make representations, mostly protestations, but do so with, even when the RUC, and that, I suppose, manifestation of policing was there, we met with them. 

But I have no plans at this moment and I'm sure that there would be many republicans who would be very keen that I shouldn't. But I have a job of leadership to do and we will try and do that. 

MARK DEVENPORT

You said on many occasions that you believe that the current crisis within the process is really a crisis within unionism. Later on this programme we're going to be speaking to two members of the Ulster Unionist Council who'll be meeting next weekend to decide Mr Trimble's fate. If there was one thing you could say to them to encourage them to stick with this process, what would that be?

GERRY ADAMS

Well, those who voted for the Agreement did a very brave thing, when they did it in the Referendum over four years ago, and it was the right thing to do and they should stick by that because what we had beforehand, either during all of that conflict or even pre-conflict, was just a recipe for disaster. You can see how there are big crisis in the Middle East, we seem to be heading towards conflict in Iraq and God knows where all of that's going to go. 

Surely our job is to consolidate what we have here, and they need to make up their minds and having made their minds up then they need to go forward with the rest of us. And I only hope now that people listening to this interview accept, even though it may be difficult, that Sinn Féin genuinely is about making this Agreement work. Making the institutions work and wanting to reach out the hand of friendship to unionists, to carve out the kind of new dispensation that is required.
 
MARK DEVENPORT

Well that was Gerry Adams. Joining me now to gauge the mood within unionism, with seven days to go to the Ulster Unionist Party's crucial council meeting, are two unionists from David Trimble's back yard, Upper Bann. George Savage is one of the constituency's Assembly members and Robert Oliver is a sceptical member of the Ulster Unionist Council.

Robert Oliver, did anything Gerry Adams have to say there make you change your ways or change your direction as you approach this Council meeting?

ROBERT OLIVER

Well, Mark, there's very little Gerry Adams would say to make me change my mind about him. But the one thing that he did mention was how brave the Ulster Unionist people that voted for the Agreement were back in 1998. I'd have to say I agree with him there, they were brave, but those people did vote on the Ulster Unionist manifesto of 1998, for which this manifesto has been broken on several occasions by David Trimble and members of the Assembly at Stormont, and this is why there are great concerns within Ulster Unionism today. 

MARK DEVENPORT

This is the ninth Council meeting, is there anything in your mind that makes you believe that David Trimble, if he's a cat, is just about to run out of lives?

ROBERT OLIVER

Well, I don't think the Assembly or the Council meeting coming up on Saturday has anything to do with David Trimble's leadership, at least I'm not aware of. I believe that, again it's the concerns of 43, 44% of the people of the Ulster Unionist Council as to how things are going at this moment in time. I mean, as I said, it's almost a year from the last Ulster Unionist Council meeting, a lot has happened since then, Mark. 

You only have to look on the news every night around Glenbryn, North Belfast, South Belfast, of all the troubles, the shootings, Colombia affair and also the Castlereagh affair. A lot has happened over the past 12 months to again cause grave concern, as you like to call us, maybe Ulster Unionist sceptics within the party.
 
MARK DEVENPORT

George Savage, as Robert Oliver says, a lot of concern over the course of the summer, but this last week has seen the announcement, in principle, of a ceasefire monitor. Presumably that's something that your party leader, David Trimble, will be bringing to the council saying he's achieving things?

GEORGE SAVAGE

I would assume so, but referring back to what Gerry has said that it was a brave step for the Ulster Unionists, for many of the Ulster Unionist delegates. It was, and, I mean, I have got to say that we have many doubts and concerns about the performance of Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein/IRA. But one of the things that could, should be done, if people lived up to the Belfast Agreement, Gerry, why does he have to come out, why can he not come out and handover of the weapons and put everybody's minds at ease?

MARK DEVENPORT

They've handed over some of them.

GEORGE SAVAGE

Yes, I know, but nobody has really seen what they've handed over. Why not put people's minds at ease now and hand over the real thing and then there's no, it takes that, there's a doubt there, and then that takes that all away from what people can actually see for themselves. 

MARK DEVENPORT

On the Council meeting, how fearful are you about David Trimble's margin here. He's obviously won against challenges in the past but I know, for instance, in Upper Bann some of his supporters who were on the Council have now been voted off in the last election to the association. Could things be getting closer this time around?

GEORGE SAVAGE

Well, that's always politics, you have a change in policy, you've a change in membership, of branches and what have you, and there will always be new blood coming into the scene and I know that David Trimble has, he has had a difficult passage. 

But, at the end of the day someone had to carry the thing forward and I can remember in Upper Bann saying many a time that difficult decisions were going to have to be made. Someone had to make those decisions and he happened to be the man there at the time and the place.

But, you know, there's a lot of players on this field, and I'm talking about other political members, leaders from all the political parties, and they have got to live up to their, what they signed up to.

MARK DEVENPORT

You and other Assembly members are going to be facing re-election very soon, obviously the due date is May. Doesn't that contribute to nervousness within the party because the DUP has been breathing down your necks?

GEORGE SAVAGE

I think, I know the DUP has been breathing down our necks, but they're working the system up at Stormont just as the same as any other party and we, ourselves, will, we know that the benefits that we have achieved from the Belfast Agreement. 

We don't want to penalise our own people just because Sinn Fein does not do enough to keep its word, and I think we have got to put the pressure on Sinn Fein. I don't, maybe pressure's not the right word, but we have got to bring it to the attention of Sinn Fein that they have got to honour their agreement.

MARK DEVENPORT

Robert Oliver, isn't the problem for the sceptics that you haven't really spelled out an alternative, it's all about pulling down this power sharing arrangement, but what to put in its place, either in terms of an alternative leadership or an alternative agreement?

ROBERT OLIVER

Well, Mark, I noticed, your question asked to George firstly concerning about the independent monitors coming in from the United States. With the greatest respect, I don't think anyone within Northern Ireland needs anyone from the United States of America to come along and tell us whether a ceasefire is in place or not. 

Again, I come back to what I said earlier, the ceasfire, as far as I'm concerned, and several people, and many, many, people on the street may I add, the ceasefire is broken and we don't need people coming from America to tell us that, and I feel that the sooner that, within the Ulster Unionist Party, they get back to the 1998 manifesto the sooner we can get moving forward. 

Now, coming to your question, as to trying, as a sceptic again, trying to pull down a shared Government, that's not the point at all. In 1998, when I voted 'no' at the Referendum, I voted 'no' because I didn't like what was in the Belfast Agreement. Yes, there was good points but unfortunately, on behalf of unionism, there was more negative points that had not been, in my mind, discussed in a proper manner before the Agreement was signed. That is why I voted 'no'. As far as I'm concerned local Government is good government for Northern Ireland. When decisions can be made local, when those people in charge can be approached directly at a local level, that's good for Northern Ireland. 

Many good things have come out of the Agreement, unfortunately at what cost to the Ulster Unionist people? And in the Upper Bann constituency what we see is that the Ulster Unionist people, some of which did vote for the Agreement at the time, are turning around now and saying, well that is not what I voted for.

MARK DEVENPORT

George Savage, do you think David Trimble's leadership is secure and do you think the election won't be until May. Will we have an early election?

GEORGE SAVAGE

I don't know. I'm not in the inner circle of the powers that be in Glengall Street. I will be watching developments very closely, I know that it will be, I would assume that this meeting on Saturday week, it will be a sounding board to see what the reaction is, and all I can say is that I will certainly be going down to it with an open mind and hoping that all of the various strands of unionism can be brought together because our party, there's very, very, little divides us. 

Robert Oliver and I would be good friends and we have worked hard for our party, I can listen to the grass roots of unionism, I know what are, I know what their feelings are and I know that it's no use plugging on, and plugging on and forgetting about those views. You've got to listen and take them on board.

MARK DEVENPORT

And the same question, just to finish off, to you, Robert Oliver. Do you think David Trimble's leadership is secure and will he be leading this party into a May election?

ROBERT OLIVER

That depends on David Trimble and how he treats the other 43, 44% of the people. I am not looking necessarily for a change of leadership. If that comes about between now and May then obviously we will look at the candidates that may put their names forward. What I would like to see is David Trimble and his officers, within Stormont and within the Executive of the Ulster Unionist Party, go to the likes of Jeffrey Donaldson, David Burnside, the likes of myself and other members, and say, look people, there is a large split here. We need to sit down, we need to work on this. Please let us sit down, find common ground here and unite this party to go into the Assembly elections, and that will mean that we cannot have delegates going to the Assembly or going to the Assembly elections who just agree with everything David Trimble says. There must be people, like myself, going forward to the Assembly.

9/15/02

SECRETARY OF STATE, RADIO 4 'WESTMINSTER HOUR' 

INTERVIEWER

What can he say that he's not said before, to convince Mr Trimble's opponent not to collapse who want to collapse the powersharing Government.

SECRETARY OF STATE

What I would say is that David Trimble has delivered a lot more for unionists in Northern Ireland than any of his critics ever did. I mean when you look at the principle of consent that is now accepted, the fact that Ireland itself has changed its constitution, despite all the ongoing problems, the reduction in deaths over the last few years, the increase in the standard of living, the local Government in Northern Ireland itself, the decommissioning of the IRA. It is David Trimble who has achieved all of this and none of his critics have either achieved anything or had any alternative to what he is saying.

INTERVIEWER

I entirely understand why you are so warm about David Trimble and hope to sure him up against the opposition within his own party and it is widely expected in a bid to do that, you are going to throw him some political bones. 

This week we expect you to announce an independent monitor of paramilitary violence. What can this monitor tell us that the police and the media aren't telling us already? What value can this monitor be when it won't have access to all the intelligence material that you see, apart from being a public relations fig leaf for David Trimble? What is the real point of this new monitor?

SECRETARY OF STATE

First of all I am not being warm to David Trimble, we occasionally have very frosty exchanges and he is a very tough man to deal with. What we are talking about is not a bone to David Trimble or anyone else. Indeed what I am suggesting is something that was first suggested by David Ford of the Alliance Party. 

It has been questioned, funnily enough, by a combination of Jeffrey Donaldson and David Trimble's critics and Sinn Fein, they are on the same side, they both object to it. Now what we are doing this for, is to show that there is no acceptable level of violence and secondly that the Northern Ireland people have the right to know about the level of violence. 

I don't know why anybody should object to that. I take it that no one will be comfortable with it if they are involved in that violence. But we think that people have a right to have the information put out systematically in the public domainŠ..

INTERVIEWER

But you could put out that information, you don't need a monitor to do that. You could do that, you have got access to all the information.

SECRETARY OF STATE

Well, there is the point of credibility

INTERVIEWER

You don't have credibility?

SECRETARY OF STATE

Well it has been put to me that it has greater credibility if it's being done by someone who is independent or some mechanism that is independent. Now that is arguable. Not all independent mechanisms in Northern Ireland are accepted. But I can see the force of the argument and I do think it has to be absolutely clear, both that the people of Northern Ireland have the right to know about this violence in a form that is systematic, perhaps at regular intervals and that there is no acceptable level of violence. 

Now all of the parties have been generally supportive of that over the past year. David Trimble has been the most forceful recently on it. But it isn't, by no means, just something to throw to David Trimble. It is something intrinsically good in itself.

INTERVIEWER

Your monitor is going to, as you say, present reports. It won't be expected to produce conclusions about whether paramilitary groups have broken their ceasefires. That decision, the really crucial judgement, the keeping in your own hands, that again begs the question, what is the real point of this monitor?

SECRETARY OF STATE

Let me explain to you the difference of the two mechanisms. Legally, practically, as well as politically I have to keep that decision on ceasefires on the basis of advice from the Chief Constable, not least because I have access to information, sometimes which is extremely sensitive from intelligent sources which may cast light on my judgement in these matters. However, I have said all along a ceasefire is not enough. 

No one should think that merely by being on ceasefire that all other sorts of violence can go on and that that somehow is acceptable to us. So people have said to me, it is a good idea if there is an independent source of bringing together the information that is available and put that systematically in the public domain in a way that is easily understood. What violence is going on? Is it getting worse? Is it getting better? Where is it occurring? Who is behind it?

INTERVIEWER

It is your refrain that there is no acceptable level of violence in Northern Ireland and yet there is still a lot of violence in Northern Ireland. There are continuing and appalling sectarian attacks and yet you judge that most of the paramilitary groups are not in breach of their ceasefires. 

Can you understand why people get the impression that so long as a terrorist group doesn't actually let off a bomb, you do actually accept that there is an acceptable level of violence in Northern Ireland, because you don't judge that these groups have breached their ceasefires?

SECRETARY OF STATE

I am sorry to appear disrespectful, but you are wrong again. I don't judge that most of the paramilitary groups are on ceasefire. The Real IRA, the Continuity IRA, the Dissident republicans, the UDA, the LVF, the UFF, I will judge to be off ceasefire.

INTERVIEWER

But the IRA you judge still to be on ceasefire.

SECRETARY OF STATE

In the round I judge that the Provisional IRA and the UVF are on ceasefire. This does not mean to say that I or anyone else are blind to the fact that these, as well as other organisations, are involved in the local violence of orchestration. 

Sometimes, incidentally, to restrain local people at the interfaces from further violence, there is evidence of that as the police have pointed out and on other occasions orchestrating some forms of civil disorder and we are saying we have to go way beyond the ceasefire, that that level of involvement is not acceptable and one of the ways to put pressure on people is to put into the public domain exactly who is behind this violence. 

The Assistant Chief Constable said last week and it will be plain to everyone that of the serious lethal, murderous, sectarian violence there is no doubt that the significant majority of that is coming from loyalists. But there is involvement in the streets in violence by all of these paramilitary groups. 

And there is an added obligation upon the Provisional IRA because they are part of a movement that is in Government, so they have come a huge way, but neither they nor anyone else should think that there is an acceptable place involving violence at which they can stop.

INTERVIEWER

What these issues and others like them illustrate is your wider difficulty. Your strategy, the Government strategy has always been based on the idea that the longer Northern Ireland had devolved power then the more politics would normalise and the extremists would be isolated. Is not the reverse happening, whether it is on the streets or in political life, violence continues, Mr Trimble is in some trouble, voters are moving away from the centre, they're going to, if they are unionists to Ian Paisley's party, if they are nationalists to Sinn Fein. 

Do you not fear that the Government's whole strategy for Northern Ireland is slowly unravelling on your watch?

SECRETARY OF STATE

No our strategy has been and remains quite simple and that is to address the underlying political problems of Northern Ireland getting inclusive Government, inclusive of both traditions and giving it an all Ireland dimension. 

Secondly, to make sure that on social measures that there is a quality of opportunity for everyone, irrespective of their religious background and thirdly, dealing with the consequence of not previously having dealt with those political and social problems which is violence. 

It is not true that we have not made advances in terms of standard of living, security, reduction in that terrible (unclear) murders. If you look we have had seven or eight this year which is eight too many but it is half the numbers we had last year. In terms of inclusive Government, at all levels, there have been major advances. 

So those people who say we are not as well off as we used to be, just are flying in the face of all the facts. But there is still a long way to go in this journey. 

There is still violence on our streets, particularly in those areas where there has been more bitterness, more murders over the last 30 years that any other areas. So there are enclaves, there are localities in Northern Ireland where we still have to develop the means of democratic dialogue of local discussions across the interfaces. 

We are tackling that politically, we are tackling it with putting in the resources in security terms and we recognise how far we have got to go, which is one of the reasons we are going to highlight and spotlight the continuing violence, who is involved in it, what level it is. But we are light years away from where we were 10, 15, 20 or 30 years ago.

9/16/02

SECRETARY OF STATE - Good Morning, Ulster 
 
SECRETARY OF STATE

In the round I judge that the Provisional IRA and the UVF are on ceasefire. This does not mean to say that I, or anyone else, are blind to the fact that these, as well as other organisations, are involved in local violence of orchestration. Sometimes, incidentally, to restrain local people at the interfaces from further violence, there's evidence of that, as the police have pointed out, and on other occasions orchestrating some forms of civil disorder and we're saying, we have to go way beyond the ceasefire, that that level of involvement is not acceptable and one of the ways to put pressure on people is to put into the public domain exactly who is behind this violence. 

The Assistant Chief Constable said last week, and it'll be plain to everyone, that of the serious lethal, murderous, sectarian violence there is no doubt that the significant majority of that is coming from loyalists. But there is involvement in the streets in violence by all of these paramilitary groups and there is an added obligation upon the Provisional IRA because they're part of a movement that is in Government.

CONOR BRADFORD

That was the Secretary of State speaking. Well, joining us now, our political editor, Mark Devenport.

Is this a shift on the part of the Secretary of State do you think?

MARK DEVENPORT

Not particularly, I mean, he's obviously defending this ceasefire monitor which the Government significantly wants to call more a paramilitary violence monitor and I think that is because the Government wants whoever actually takes up this job to produce various graphs and surveys showing trends in paramilitary violence, but not to make that key decision about whether a ceasefire is broken or not, which will still rest with John Reid. 

It's also interesting that John Reid is spelling out that there can be orchestration which is, according to him, good orchestration. That is actually controlling the level of violence rather than hyping it up. So that's an interesting statement but not particularly a shift, it's really just laying further groundwork to the announcement of further details which we're expecting later on this week.
 
CONOR BRADFORD

And he's determined to appoint this monitor despite the reservations from Sinn Féin on this issue. So clearly this is one to the unionists if you like?

MARK DEVENPORT

Well, certainly that's how it's going to be seen. I'm sure the Government would take issue with that. They would point out that the idea originated with the Alliance Party and that there's backing across the board. But, we have seen reservations expressed by the SDLP and opposition expressed by Sinn Fein. 

So I certainly think that David Trimble will use this in his key meeting which is coming up on 21st September, next weekend, to say, look, I'm still the leader who is producing results from the Government for the unionist cause.

CONOR BRADFORD

Is this what we talk about, the 'Save Dave' campaign, a phrase that originated with Sinn Fein, and they see the Secretary of State basically is trying to sure up Mr. Trimble's position. Is that fair comment?

MARK DEVENPORT

Well, I certainly think not only Sinn Fein believes that there's a certain amount of orchestration, not by the paramilitaries, but by the Government over what's been going on. We've heard about CCTV cameras going in, in East Belfast, that's been something that Ulster Unionists on the ground have been calling for, for some time. 

Now we hear that the ceasefire or paramilitary violence monitor is definitely going to go ahead. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we hear something more in terms of the protection of the PSNI full time reserve during the course of the week and it's not just Sinn Féin, it's also the sceptics within Ulster Unionism who believe that this is all window dressing by the Government to make things look as rosy as possible for Mr Trimble ahead of his meeting.

CONOR BRADFORD

Well is it enough for Mr Trimble to beat of his critics and stay in power with Sinn Fein and the power sharing Executive?
 
MARK DEVENPORT

It probably helps and it will also help, I think, if he is basically saying to his critics, look, let's leave it a few more months. It may well help, for instance, if he can point to a likely report by this monitor, say around Christmas time, as something which will provide them with more evidence one way or the other. It will give us logic to saying, now is not the time. 

Whether he will win, it's always a 64,000 dollar question, Conor, as you know because it's a fluid situation within that party, especially with the Assembly elections looming. But I think, as I've been saying before, that we have to give him the benefit of the doubt at this stage.

9/16/02

DENIS BRADLEY - TALKBACK 

DAVID DUNSEITH

Sinn Féin's Gerry Adams will not rule out a meeting with the Chief Constable, Hugh Orde, that's what he said in Inside Politics on Saturday. Alex Attwood the SDLP spokesperson on policing has described this as another about turn. I asked Denis Bradley, Vice Chair at the Policing Board, how he rated the significance of the Adams' statement?

DENIS BRADLEY

I think it's a very important statement and I think that the tone of it is particularly important. I think, you see, one of the things that delays us, and stops us, and prevents us, is that people don't always acknowledge that we have been through a very nasty, dirty war for 30 years and that getting through the psychology of that war, out the other end is giving us great difficulties. 

Now I think that's true for the republican movement, but I must say, as a person who's around the police a lot too, it is also creating difficulty for the police, there is still within the Police Service a psychology that they're still involved in war and sometimes, I mean, they have very genuine reasons for saying that because the Real IRA's still out there, the Continuity IRA's still out there and we've had the past five shootings from the UDA, or whoever have been responsible, in the last few days. 

But there is a very big task facing all leaders in the North of Ireland to move out of war, to begin to imagine peace and I think that anything that brings that about is actually a very creative step and I thought that the tone of what Gerry Adams said the other day was to be welcomed.

DAVID DUNSEITH

And he did acknowledge of course that a lot of republicans would not be all that happy about it if he did?

DENIS BRADLEY

Yes, but I think that the republican movement and I think that the republican people are open to change and I think that they're open to creative effort. I mean, I think, that you don't have to look past what Alex Maskey's done, vis a vis laying wreaths at cenotaphs and out in Belgium at this moment of time and I don't see any great negative feedback from any of that. I think that people are, in some ways I also think that people are tired of war, I think they're tired of conflict. They actually are responsive to creative, positive movements. 

I think that they're tired of the pettiness that sometimes kicks into our politics. So I think that, I did hear Gerry Adams using the word 'leadership', he is the leader of the republican movement and that he has to show that leadership and I think that is to be welcomed.

 I would also remind people that a few, about a month or six weeks ago Hugh Orde was asked a question, would he meet the republican movement and he said, of course. So I think that shows a form of leadership as well.

DAVID DUNSEITH

The Oversight Commissioner was talking last week about rising crime and sectarian street violence, that could wreck major programmes of police reform. Now if you put all that into the pot and the possibility of Gerry Adams meeting the chief of police, as we're talking about. But there are still dangers there, significant it may be but there are still a lot of dangers, a lot of pitfalls, a lot of minefields to go through?

DENIS BRADLEY

Of course there are, but I also think that we may have a better winter than we did have a summer, particularly vis a vis the interfaces. I think again people are tired of that, they see that there is no political advantage in it. 

I think that people are maturing into the fact that that is only damaging themselves and their own communities and I also think that there's a lot of people working on the ground and those people are actually making efforts that are reaping dividends at this moment.

I think that there's an acknowledgement that the interface situations are not a policing problem, they're about communities being able to live together and so forth and that the police have a role to play within that, but they can't solve that within their own right. 

So I think all of those things are actually giving us a scenario in which I think that we could have a better autumn and a better winter than we had a summer. But having said that, I don't think that the summer was as bad as sometimes it is made out to be. I mean we had two very unfortunate deaths during the summer and we've had deaths over the last few days and so forth. But again, that's all part of the old negative war mentality and we're not going to move out of it today or tomorrow. But I think that the leadership that we need is beginning to be shown.

JEFFREY DONALDSON, 8 O'CLOCK NEWS, GMU 19.9.02

INTERVIEWER

A senior Ulster Unionist says the appointment of a violence monitor will come under scrutiny at this weekend's crucial party meeting. Lagan Valley MP Jeffrey Donaldson says he doesn't think the move will go any way to addressing the extent of the problem of paramilitary violence here.

JEFFREY DONALDSON

We don't need someone to tell us the level of violence that is on the streets, we know that already. We have got the police to tell us that, that is their job. What we need to know is what the Government are going to do about that violence. John Reid has turned a blind eye to the IRA and to the loyalist paramilitaries and what they have been doing. We want to know what the Government are now going to do in respect of the broken ceasefires that have already occurred.

KEN REID REPORT, UTV LIVE 18.9.02

KEN REID

John Reid was in Downing Street today for the Prime Minister's meeting with Sinn Fein. A short time later he confirmed the Government was to appoint the much predicted ceasefire monitor.

JOHN REID

I am in no doubt that in principle it is something we should do. At the moment obviously I want it to be the right person or persons, this isn't something that you do for a short-term headline. There is a job of work to be done, so I am looking for a person who would command confidence right across the community to do that job of work. It is not a celebrity or a star that we are looking for in order to get a headline for one night. It is someone who, over a period of time, will be able to put the information that people deserve, to people.

KEN REID

But after the meeting the Prime Minister. Sinn Fein felt the move was irrelevant.

GERRY ADAMS

It doesn't matter to us as a party. Will it help the Agreement? Will it help the process of change? Will it be seen as the Government pandering to unionism? Those are all questions that have a very obvious answer and whatever the British Government does on that none of us can afford to be distracted from the central reason for a Good Friday Agreement. What is the central reason? British rule in Ireland is intrinsically undemocratic.

KEN REID

But interestingly Gerry Adams talked of progress on the policing issue. He said he wanted to see the changes in the policing legislation.

GERRY ADAMS

I raised this with the Taoiseach the other day. I raised the whole issue of the need for senior people from other forces, including the Garda Siochana have been able to come into the new police service. There is a whole range of issues from lateral entry, from legislation from the Irish Government, but particularly the promises that were made in the Good Friday Agreement and the recommendations of the Patten Commission being brought into effect by this Government and we make our judgement on that when we actually see the colour of those legislative amendments.

KEN REID

The Government is expected to announce another law and order initiative tomorrow. But all eyes will be firmly cast on a Belfast hotel on Saturday and another meeting of the Ulster Unionist Council.